Let’s say just like for example like MacOS. It’s awesome we have so many tools but at the same time lack of some kind of standardization can seem like nothing works and you get overwhelmed. I’m asking for people that want to support Linux or not so tech-savy people.
The problem is, that no operating system “just works”. It also highly depend on what the person wants to achieve, and if there are any pre experience with computers or even relying on existing software or specific hardware. My recommendation is not to tell people the illusion of “just works” and be honest upfront. People should learn how it works, what to expect and if tradeoffs, time and resources are worth it.
Same is true for the other way too. Does Windows “just works”? Especially if someone switches from Linux to Windows.
Rather, we should teach the reasons to switch and encourage that decision. In example why it matters to have control over your system, rather than the company has control over it (MacOS and Windows) or why spying on you is bad (Windows). And encourage giving up something you are used to (and maybe paid). Sometimes its okay to use a program that is not as good as Photoshop. Sometimes its okay to give up playing a videogame you like (and maybe associated with friends playing that game with you). But most people are not ready to do it, because that is associated with lowering quality of life.
I switched in 2008 from Windows XP to Ubuntu. I know these struggles. And they are not over yet. This is an ongoing task between my brother and me too, and he was using the Steam Deck, but decided to go with Windows 11 with the recent build. It was almost there, but there is always a butt. I say, don’t tell people that “Linux just works”. No operating system “just works”.
Also, Linux does not auto-update itself, and that’s bad mostly when looking at the programs (like the web browser) that did that automatically, and here it can’t anymore.
I understand that most users don’t update their system and the utils they downloaded, but that’s essential for a web browser.
I was considering that I should just install Firefox as the fatpak for everyone, instead of the core package manager, for this and other reasons, but my users have so little memory in their old machines that it’s already barely necessary.
I hate to say this, but windows rarely breaks itself from updates. basic things like the desktop, audio and the lock screen is essentially never broken after an update.
yeah it may reset the audio settings and other such things, and I don’t know how do they manage to do that, but that’s relatively simple to revert.
probably it’s just thanks to old, battle tested code though. can’t wait for Linux desktop systems to reach that point
Most common Linux distributions focused on stability do not randomly break with updates. That’s usually not an issue. Basic things like Desktop and audio or lock screen are also never broken after an update. But it depends on the Linux operating system you are using (there are thousands of Linux operating systems and they can vastly differ) and what hardware and habits you have. Windows biggest strength is that it gets the most support from developers and being basically only one distribution to target.
But calling Windows “battle tested code” is a bit of stretch. Windows is full of problems and I had my own issues due to updates of Windows (when I was using it in dual boot). Also in Linux I can update and do not boot until I want to boot. I can decide not to update. Overall I have more trust in Linux updates (even using on Archlinux) than Windows updates. Microsoft constantly fucks up updates. And they even introduce and install stuff you don’t know or want to.
An old story of mine buying Civilization 6 at launch on Windows was unplayable. After days and contacting support, turned out it was a Skype installer that was installed with a Windows update without my knowledge. And it was just an installer to install Skype, not even running. Removing it made my game Civilization 6 playable. I never had such an issue on Linux.
I tried switching to Linux many years ago (forgot what distro). It was hell.
I don’t remember the specifics anymore, but I remember encountering issues almost every step of the way. Driver support, not being able to find the right buttons, etc. Searching for fixes usually led me down a rabbit hole of “oh cool this user on this forum said in another thread that I just need to install Gobbledegook… But what is it and how do I install it?” and of course a bunch of things require CLI which I’m not fantastic at. Unfortunately I gave up after a week.
Compared to that, Windows really “just works”. I have had my share of frustrations, but it’s usually with stuff that’s comparatively an edge case when compared to the problems I had with Linux. I don’t like that I’m giving money/data to a megacorp, but the price of that is convenience. I don’t churn my own butter, I don’t build my own car, I don’t want to think too much about how my OS works under the hood.
Simple, start teaching it in elementary school all the way up through high school. Apple did it long ago and got apple users out of those kids. Microsoft does it now, and now you have Windows users. Just need the computer education to be Linux centric from the start. It’s not that it’s different, it’s that it’s not what they grew up with and were taught.
Windows hasn’t been in schools for a while. It is all Chrome OS
I think it depends. If a school has a laptop for each student, it is most certainly a Chromebook. However, a lot of schools also have a mix of systems. In elementary school, I was taught to use Microsoft Office on Windows, for instance. At my high school, all the students had Chromebooks, but there were also some labs with Windows machines; graphic design, photography, and film classes had labs full of 5K iMacs.
Chromebooks are low cost and easy to manage. Unless it is for a highly specific use I wouldn’t be surprised if a school was all Chromebooks and Chromeboxes.
Also there is a public high school full of expensive macs? That’s wild
Not exactly “full of” - it was more like 3 classrooms with 30 each. Still a lot of Macs, but keep in mind this was a high school of 2000 students. Also, I’m pretty sure the Macs were paid for with grants for the visual arts programs rather than standard public funding.
Whether any OS could ever just work isn’t even going to solve the issue.
Getting OEMs to sell laptops and desktops in Best Buy (or the like) that have Linux installed and is properly supported — that is what will help solve the issue.
having it just work is a necessary step to gett there
When there exists an operating system that can satisfy that qualification, I’ll concede the point. Until then, OEM and retail support is what matters.
Immutable distros like Silverblue or Bazzite are the only path I see that can work for normies. However flatpak itself has to mature more, theming anomalies need to be dealt with somehow for example.
Mint is only good to ease a technically inclined person into the linux world.
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you can’t because it’s explicitly against the whole point of having endless choices. when everyone works on something different, the quality spreads out to where it’s mostly just mediocre stuff across the board.
hardware compatibility is also a huge problem. for everyone that says “it works fine for me” there are a thousand others for whom it does not.
I get downvoted to oblivion when I point out “just works” isn’t true.
You make a great point about endless choices.
No single UI, no single set of tools, those are massive barriers. And it’s why Windows became the de facto standard: single UI, consistent toolset.
And it’s why Windows became the de facto standard: single UI, consistent toolset.
No so true after win 7, there’s a bunch of legacy menu.
It’s at least the same inconsistent toolset as everyone else. Windows 10? Ok go through this multi step process. 11? Ok this other slightly different process.
VS Linux you have 700 consistent toolsets, and 70000000 inconsistent toolsets.
I feel like there’s also the point that on Mac OS a lot of stuff “just works” because everything else just doesn’t work at all. I have a number of things that just aren’t going to work at all on Mac. Linux is obviously much more permissive, which leads to a lot more kinda working stuff that just wouldn’t work at all on Mac.
when everyone works on something different, the quality spreads out to where it’s mostly just mediocre stuff across the board.
I wouldn’t say that’s the only problem. We have pretty high quality stuff on Linux. The other problem is that choice always means differences between options which makes perfect integration hard or even impossible.
Yeah but you can have default choices that are guarantee to work.
And yeah preinstalled checked hardware would be ideal.
From a non techy perspective, having what is used and installed being secure is a big one. I am new to Linux Mint. Mostly user friendly until something gets corrupted or suddenly can not be verified.
Looking for why is not always simple, and there are some explanations/instructions easier to understand than others.
I preface most of my searches with Linux mint (whatever I am searching for) for dummies. This helps some.
To make Linux more appealing to the average person, you’d have to be able to buy a Linux PC at your local computer store. Most people can’t be bothered to install a new OS.
That’s also true but also impossible. Linux isn’t a for profit company.
lol wtf are you talking about? You can literally take $100 off the price of a computer just because it’s not bundled with a Winderps license - the price is straight up lower because the license cost is $0. You can order some models like this straight from Dell or Lenovo or whatever.
OEMs aren’t paying $100 per license. They’re also taking deals with McAfee/Norton/whatever to package a bunch of extra crap on your windows laptop to lower the price further.
What are you even talking about? Anyone can sell a PC with pre-installed Linux. There are already several companies today so just that.
Let me clarify myself
*It’s impossible to get big corporate guys attention so they ship Linux by default and it’s clearly tested. For now the Valve, System76, Framework and Tuxedo are exception.
Edit: Also I was keeping in mind corporatr entity behind OS.
- Apple - MacOS
- Microsoft - Windows
- ? - Linux
The big guys won’t sell Linux to consumers because of Microsoft’s anticompetitive practices. That’s the main thing that’s holding back Linux acceptance right now. But if some big player (e.g. Valve) would take the leap, things might get interesting.
Dell sells PC’s with Linux installed.
Not in retail stores though AFAIK
Correct. I was just touching on the big corporations point since they listed some online only retailers.
It would be a real leap forward, if Linux PCs were sold in big box stores. Which is why Microsoft will do anything they can to prevent that.
“It’s impossible. Let me list 4 exceptions though”
Hahaha true 😆
But the scale is too small for now. :/
I’ve seen this type of question elsewhere. Why is it an issue?
Standardisation? Corporate Linux? Just like the big boys? Big fish eat little fish.
Careful what you ask for . .
Dell have at times sold laptops with Linux pre installed.
Can you buy a Dell laptop with Linux at a retail store?
Perhaps someone could make a business of it then.
Chromebooks sold well enough. Google made $30 billion on that in 2023.
Anyone willing to put together a physical Linux machine, market and support it could take a chunk of that.
For me it was always a niche that wasn’t taken full advantage of.
Chromebooks never really made sense outside of schools and old people.
The OS is hyper limited to essentially just a web browser, and android apps (so just a web browser). Nobody wants to buy premium hardware to use with just Chrome. But at the same time it’s Chrome, so you really need at least a good chunk of RAM. So it really just limits you to the super light use cases, but those could realistically be replaced by a tablet.
The other day we saw an extremely odd device at malwart. They had a $270 laptop/tablet hybrid thing with a fairly nice OLED display, and a snapdragon CPU that should have been more that sufficient. But 128gb of EMMC storage, and 4 gigs of ram. Such wasted potential. It would make a nice RDP machine I guess.
No major OEM will do a consumer Linux PC because MS will punish them with Windows licence pricing. You’d have to be a newcomer that’s not beholden to MS. At the same time, you’d need a shitload of cash to start a hardware business with enough volume to get into big box stores. That’s why it hasn’t happened yet
I don’t see it as impossible. Like various brands are distributed with windows, various brands can be distributed with various Linux distros, customizable by distro and features, pre-order. These brands can work out a donation contract with distros.
If you sell a Linux machine to consumers, Microsoft will screw you over on Windows licencing. No current OEM will risk that.
Yes, but also companies say that Linux support is not worthit (gaining money and spending on the support) compared to - slapping barely working Windows port and call it a day.
For now Linux support is more like pleasant surprise than a official respected thing.
I bet when demand crosses a certain threshold, support supply will quickly follow, gatekeepers bedamned.
It depends on which user and their workflow. For example, Graphics Designer use Photoshop compare to GIMP because of native CMYK for printing as well as non-destructive effects. Most people will be fine using GIMP.
I bring this up as I tend to see people on Lemmy and even in online space that talks about open source that would bitch about “normies” being too stubborn for not trying Linux or any open-source projects in general but never think about how much compromise they had to do if they do go down the open-source route.
- Idiot proofing
- Automation, integration and premade scripts and GUI tools for the use of tools such as wine and other pain point relief software
- Idiot proofing
- Decrease choice fatigue by decreasing the number of choices visible by default as much as possible (Ubuntu is an okay example/starting point in my opinion)
- Make a one-stop-shop wiki or equivalent with the specific purpose of giving explanations to non Linux-savvy people
I think that the proliferation of software/app centers is a great development when it comes to package management. Guides should mention them as an option to install whatever packages are needed, as a lot of people are clearly afraid of terminals.
Which leads to the “more GUI tools” point, which I’m sure everyone knows by now.
Also, you know how Windows update is so aggressive with getting you to update? That’s for a reason.
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So reading all of your responses
- Tested and preinstalled hardware
- One resource to solve the issue not many
- Customizablity when needed
- Easy rollback when something breaks
- Changing people mindset that Linux isn’t for desktops
Does anyone have more?
An easy way to import/export Flatpaks would be really convenient. On Windows, I can easily move around software using a usb drive to a computer that may not be connected to the internet. I’d have no clue how to do that on Linux aside from AppImages
But due to fragmentation etc. I’d guess that such portable flatpaks would be huge, as they’d need to carry all dependencies in case the other end is missing some
For all its faults at least you don’t need to chmod+x on windows. Ironic since linux is usually more permissable.
Linux is a tool that big corporate entities have profited greatly from for many years, and will continue to. Same with BSD, Apache, Docker, MySQL, Postgres, SSH…
Valve, Sys76, Framework, etc. Are proving that using Linux to serve an end user market is also profitable, and are capable of supporting enterprise use-cases.
I understand that there may be specific problems to solve wrt improving adoptability, usability, compatibility, etc., but Linux is doing more than ok within the context of the FOSS ecosystem (and increasingly without).
Your thinking is slightly skewed, IMHO. Linux doesn’t have an inherent incentive to compete with MacOS or MS, and if it did, it would be subject to the same pressures that encourage bad behavior like spying on users, creating walled gardens, and so forth.
But Linux is open source? So if hypothetically so distro adopted spying al la windows couldn’t people just change distros? tbh I also think the question is slightly confusing as I don’t understand why OP thinks Mac OS is not standardized but I digress.
Yeah sure, a distro could start spying on users. How easy it would be would depend on their distribution model, and how willing they are to violate the GPL.
Most people have had great answers coming from the company side of things. I’ll take it from the standpoint of individuals like us helping someone linux curious see the light, while still having the “just works” experience.
Do not give them any choices. None. Put them on your stable distro of choice for a new user, call whatever that is “Linux”, and be on your way.
But why? Isn’t that antithetical to everything we value? Yes and no. We value choice almost above anything else, but that doesn’t “just work” for most people. Which of those do you value more?
No-one who buys a PC with windows preinstalled gets any choice at all… and had the preinstalled malware cme with it.
That’s true. Most are perfectly fine provided they have a computer ready to use. Straight out of the box. Immediately. The lack of choice itself is comforting. Everything moves forward. No lateral motion.
We must provide them that type of “thing that just works”. Constantly move forward. What is comfortable. What is familiar.
