While hyprland is really nice, it is made by a transphobe and a large part of the community is also. Switch to something else there are a lot of good alternatives. Kind of a protest against him.
Using hyprland in no way benefits the developer to be clear, I would just not donate, beyond that it really doesn’t matter
Popularity give them followers, followers give them money
Popularity has nothing to do with install count, and nearly every distro does opt-in to show what you’re running.
yeah if its a good program you can use it, even if it’s made by horrible people
one example is templeos. everyone likes it, even if the guy who made it was an asshole
though hyprland is different since you can donate, but like you said, you can just not donate to them!
also nice name and pfp
TempleOS is a marvel in many ways, but it’s not particularly useful to any normal person. I wouldn’t even say that Terry Davis was an asshole, because it feels wrong to hold a paranoid schizophrenic responsible for his manic episodes.
I disagree. Open source thrives on attention. Install count is like their cocaine.
Install count isn’t necessarily reported, and all forms of reporting that I know of on linux are opt-in
Shit take.
Disregarding projects or ideas due to unrelated issues is just stupid.
Then don’t do it.
Kant was racist so lets all ignore his works too?
Heidegger was a literal Nazi but we still still use his work because Being and Time is so important.
Based, fuck the categorical imperative lmao
Pretty sure the lead lemmy dev has said some transphobic things as well. They’re a major tankie at least.
Thanks for the heads up, but I’m browsing lemmy on a device that is produced at least in part by slave labor somewhere along the logistics chain. At some point I think you just have to disengage from developer drama.
Is there like a word that stands for, “I can’t be perfect so I gave up trying to be better”?
i guess “asshole” fits
i know you probably weren’t looking for a swearword, but…well…if it fits ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
and let’s be real…the people you’re referring to tend to be ignorant by choice, offensive, and generally unpleasant…
Fair take. Still i try to at least somewhat distance myself from people who want to murder my friends and family… sometimes youre forced to used somethi g you dont want to. Still with linux ricing it is a bit hypocritical to say that you want to use the easiest option as ricing is literally taking the hard path. Just use kde or gnome then. Also, hate the transphobes and not the people who use the software they make, important note.
At some point I think you just have to disengage from developer drama.
Let’s not remind them who made JavaScript, lol.
It’s in large part made thanks to slave and child labour, with rare metals more-often-than-not sourced in areas of conflict.
I misread this as “made me a transphobe”
the animations man… they really just made me hate those people
Rounded corners and no border on floating windows has inspired many hate crimes
[…] [Hyprland] is made by a transphobe and a large part of the community is also […]
Do you have a source?
Get the fuck out of here centrist
tsk tsk, extremist.
Look at their comments. Its always do you have a source, can you explain, etc, never adding to the discussion. Classical centrist arguments and im gonna die on this hill.
Huh. Look at that, another toxic user to block.
How is knowing a context a centrist argument? People want to understand.
Having to support your argument with facts and reasoning is a well known leftist plot to undermine my feeling-based reality.
if I don’t pay the dev, and dont interact with the community, whats wrong with hyprland?
Wayland breaks VMware and steam for me. Am I stupid?
In addition to what Neonred wrote: Steam Deck uses Wayland by default and its Steam is configured to run just fine on Wayland, even if it’s possibly using XWayland behind the scenes.
both are still not native and need the XWayland compatibility layer, which is usually (but might be turned off) compiled into your Wayland desktop manager
I’m using Mint. Not sure if that helps anything. I can double check that compatibility layer
Mint is a Linux distribution, not a window manager. These are KDE Plasma, Gnome, Cinnamon, Sway, labwc, XFCE, etc.
Fully customised Hyprland use half as much ram as Plasma, but I still prefer Plasma because I can’t get used to WM
How much RAM does it use and how does this compare to running a web browser with a few open tabs?
Seriously, unless some memory leak makes a DE consume 10 gigs of RAM, nobody will notice because DE’s RAM use is dwarfed by what end user applications use. 10 years ago I got a notebook for 600 Euro with a 16 GB RAM upgrade for an additional 100 Euro.
Performance differences are either rendering speed or perceived performance because of animation speed. With the exception of embedded hardware, RAM use for desktops is irrelevant since quite some time (and on such constrained hardware you can’t properly browse the web anyway).
Hyprland bloated? Huh?
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Coming from i3, all these fancy animations are technically not needed.
If dmenu was made by a nazi I wouldn’t give a shit because its just dmenu but hyprland is so clearly made by a pack of
/g/zoomers who want their desktops to look like 1337 haXors without any access to the low level systems. Its all discord script kiddie hype-beasts.Its a tiling window manager made by people who never used a tiling window manager on X11. I know I’m sounding like an elitist boomer but this shit really violates some core Unix principals of making small composable utilities that empower the user. RiverWM or Sway keep to this philosophy.
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Qtile is great because its a program-your-own WM. I think awesomewm is the same and offers Wayland support now.
that’s like 75-80% of all development these days. bunch of discord scriptkiddie crapware that’s not even worth the headache to “configure it right”.
I shouldn’t have to configure shit, it should just fucking work.
I blame silicon valley startups and vtubers. these low effort wannabe developers just want to make a name for themselves to move up the ladder. problem is, when everybody is artificially inflating their hype-blimps something is bound to crash and burn.
we used to write software to solve problems, not make up problems to solve with software.
each year I get closer to retirement I’m grateful I won’t have to put up with these egotistical inflatable engineers or their “solutions” for any longer than I have to.
What do vtubers have to do with this?
short attention spans with zero integrity when it comes to mistreating or abusing their viewers. the majority of successful vtubers are toxic and corrosive socialites that simply want to be at the front of attention, striving to be the “top influencer”.
this kind of cancer only bled into development because they are both positions that rely on advanced technology.
now you have devs that treat their jobs like influencers do and “swoop in to save the day” only to fuck you when they moved on to greener pastures.
I’ve personally seen it happen at least 3 times in five years.
anyone who claims themselves as a “rockstar”, “forward thinker”, “innovator” or “disruptor” is a horrible developer and needs to go away. we don’t want you.
if they can’t explain to me why their shitty changes increased memory consumption by 25% they’re not a dev, they’re a script kiddie.
that said, greenhorns need apply. you’re ok but don’t get cocky. watch and learn. asking questions is good, don’t share your opinions unless you know enough that you can defend them. and don’t get bent out of shape when someone tells you your idea isn’t going to work.
im waiting on my distro probably or i could be doing just fine on experimental Wayland
What’s experimental Wayland?
Probably some desktop that only now started to adopt Wayland in an experimental state because the maintainers thought that playing “wait and see” for way too many years was a great idea.
They are called compositors, but they are not as good as X WMs IMO. I’m keeping an eye on them tho.
It still bothers me how toxic the hyprland devs behaved last year. Keeping an eye on that too 😉
compositors, but they are not as good as X WMs
Interesting. I’m curious about what seems to be missing in your use case?
Not OP, but modularity. An X11 WM is just a WM. You can choose compositor, bar, shortcut daemon, etc. With Wayland, a single implementation holds most of that, and more. If you need a specific feature from your display server, you are stuck on WMs that support it. This has forced me to use KDE for Wayland on my main workstation, and although it works well, it’s not my prefered WM/workflow.
Alongside that, no clones of several X11 WMs exist. bspwm for example. Riverwm exists, but has major limitations, and the workflow isn’t the same.
With a library like Wlroots you almost get that, it’s just in-process rather than out of process. The real problem there is doing some fancier things requires nonstandard Wayland extensions with low support across the ecosystem.
In practice wayland is way more composable that one would, at first glance, expect, and even accidentally so, because DEs are made up of different components often sharing common interfaces, so the cosmic task bar will run under the sway compositor and suchlike. Not just “run” as in “not crash” but “actually display tasks based on information from the compositor”. I expect further standardisation there once the ecosystem matures a bit more. Just because you can include a task bar directly in the compositor process doesn’t mean you have to, and the same goes for window rules, window decorators, whatnot.
The status bar example holds for xorg as well… What wm doesn’t ship its own bar nowadays? The only one I can think of is bspwm. But nothing stops you from disabling the native bar and using your own
xmonad doesn’t, though using xmobar is common.
Trying to replace KDE’s task bar is quite more involved than exchanging all those minimalist bars for tiling wms, it’s way more tightly integrated. It is a separate process even on wayland, though, so the API to e.g. get live video previews of windows is exposed, in principle anyone can use it as long as KDE spawns you as a task bar and thus grants you access to the API. Which is probably just a matter of changing an obscure config file somewhere, they never hardcode such things.
And if you’re comfortable with them changing the API under your feet because they probably didn’t submit it on the standards track because, as said, the whole ecosystem isn’t exactly mature, DEs themselves are still figuring out how to best do things and to establish a standard they actually have to agree on a common approach. There’s no taskbar stardard for X btw, either, or at least xmobar is being fed a proprietary format string via fifo every update. It’s basically just a fancy text box.
Depends things like shaped window borders for theming, title bars in hyprland, effects, pagers, some automation options, etc…
What I generally miss in Wayland is better mouse automation support, Java support, the ability to have multiple mouse cursors and assign them to different input devices.
Depends things like shaped window borders for theming, title bars
All possible. X had some age-old protocol enabling oval and whatnot windows and noone ever used it, whether you use CSD or SSD you can paint with alpha and say “nope, that mouse click wasn’t for me”. So even if logically all windows are rectangular because that makes sense because textures are rectangular and you really don’t want to complicate things at that level, UX-wise you can have fractal borders if you really want.
in hyprland,
…anything “in hyperland” is a hyperland problem, not a wayland problem.
effects, pagers, some automation options, etc…
All Things compositors can do.
What I generally miss in Wayland is better mouse automation support,
Faking input devices is compositor responsibility, for obvious security reasons.
Java support,
As if Java and X work well together.
the ability to have multiple mouse cursors and assign them to different input devices.
Weston does this, protocols support it, I don’t think it’s much of a priority for other compositors. The most common multiple pointing device configuration is to have both devices control one pointer. My tablet works and the tip is properly analogue that’s plenty of functionality for me (dunno if tilt works by now, blender doesn’t use it anyways).
You misunderstood totally. I’m not saying it’s not possible. There isn’t a compositor making use of those things, but many X WMs that do.
There’s no X WMs that fake input devices, or organise global hotkeys, or a thousand other things people always quote when bashing wayland. You can get bog-standard X applications which do that because X has literally no security model, but the feature set between e.g. KDE on X and KDE on wayland is virtually identical.
It’s like you want to misunderstand me. I’m not bashing Wayland. That part of my comment isn’t about WMs and compositors. It’s about how hard it is to make macro that does a few clicks and types a few keys into an app etc… It’s still very hard in Wayland. I’m sure it will get better some day, but we’re not there yet.
Have a look here. Not sure how they do it the proper way would be to run the desktop environment as a subcompositor of autokey.
Meanwhile, though, do try CLI automation. It’s the Unix way.
So this is my big issue with Wayland - nothing is a ”Wayland problem”. Everything lands on the compositors. Features that existed for the past few decades in X and are deeply integrated into the ecosystem were relegated to second class citizens or just ignored. (Can we share our screens with Zoom yet?)
I won’t argue that X is flawless or should live forever. X should die. However, X actually solved problems instead of just providing a bunch of (IMHO) half baked ”protocols” so that someone else can solve the problem. From the perspective of a user or application developer, that’s just hot potatoes being passed around. And there have been plenty of hot potatoes the past decade.
Thank you for reading my yearly Wayland rant. I’ll now disappear into my XMonad-fueled bliss, fully software rendered.
Everything lands on the compositors. Features that existed for the past few decades in X and are deeply integrated into the ecosystem were relegated to second class citizens or just ignored
There were ten years that the desktop environment people wasted, where all those interfaces could have been created but they only started in earnest once the x.org devs put their foot down and said “nope we’re serious x.org is unmaintainable we’re not doing this any more”.
And no, X didn’t solve any of those problems – what it did was provide completely unrestricted access to everything to anyone and it took multiple decades before different clients would stop fighting each other over control over the desktop. That clusterfuck was one of the things that x.org devs wanted to avoid, but they, not being DE devs, also didn’t know what DE people actually needed. So they asked. And, as said, didn’t get an answer.
Sure, I’ll do another mini-rant.
I have no idea what real world threat model and threat actor the Wayland people are going for. A threat actor with code execution on a Linux desktop immediately has access to the filesystem and can do whatever anyway, in practice (see also: Steam deleting home directories). Privilege Escalation is a thing and namespaces in Linux are kinda meh. Run your untrusted code in an ephemeral VM.
My point is just that once you have a threat actor running code on your system, it’s game over regardless of whatever your desktop tries to do. (I’ll run with the Maginot Line comparison here, but Wayland is more like a locked door without walls.)
The security issues with X were the X-Forwarding-stuff being kinda bad, not the ”full access to everything”-stuff. I want my applications to access my things, otherwise I wouldn’t run the application.
If your threat model seriously needs sandboxing, you’ll wanna go the Qubes-route. Anyways, Arcan seems to have a more reasonable threat model than Wayland if you wanna go that route.
Thanks for reading my yearly mini rant on why Wayland’s security don’t matter and only gets in the way of the user and application developer.
Wayland
Java support
…what?
Java GUI applicatiins have to use the X compatibility layer of Wayland at the moment, because Wayland support hasn’t been integrated into JREs yet
To clarify: This causes problems like ugly font rendering and some games not working, etc.
So what you’re saying is, it’s not so much that Java support is missing from Wayland (which wouldn’t make sense to begin with), it’s that Wayland support is missing from Java.
This is technically correct, and you’re right about where the blame lies, but I suspect for most people holding off on switching, the difference is academic.
Java’s UI libraries are notorious for shoddy window handling, it also was a nightmare on X.
Oh i see. I thought there was more to it – but I guess it’s just Java being horrible as usual.
export _JAVA_AWT_WM_NONREPARENTING=1is one of those magical make-everything-better incantations that really makes you wonder why the fuck it isn’t the default behavior
Meh. Does it do anything KDE can’t?
Well, yes, but that’s besides the point since they’re totally different types of software. KDE can also do a shit ton of things that Hyprland can’t, and isn’t expected to ever try doing.
Bloat-ware
If you want a lightweight compositor, then boy do i have just the right thing for you
It’s 3x smaller than dwl! Perfect! (and can only run one program by the tty… but no bloat!!!)
too bad the guy behind hyprland is a shitty little nazi twerp
What did he do ?
It’s open source right? Can’t a new maintainer just fork it and tell the Nazi to punch himself?
Sure.
I ain’t gonna do it tho. KDE is working well enough for me.
I just wish Wayland weren’t so weird about screensavers. It’s it so much to ask to be able to lock my account when I have a screensaver activated?*
*This is what I’m told is the issue when it’s brought up on KDE, i really don’t have the wherewithal to actually dig into it. Could be talking out of my ass on this. Hope I am at least.
KDE locks the screen out of the box, in fact looking through the GUI options I currently see no way to do a screensaver without locking. Though granted you don’t need the compositor to do that anyways.
What’s true is that not just any program can lock the screen under wayland, it has to be the compositor or a program the compositor grants the power to do so. That’s so that “press alt-tab to login” type prompts can reliably sniff out keyloggers.
Hyprland is transphobic
How is a tiling wm transphobic? Seriously get a life.
Obviously they meant the community.
I don’t agree to that either
What do you mean?
I don’t think it’s community is transphobic
the part where the community has been actively hostile to trans folks doesn’t make 'em transphobic?
Community? It was 1 mod 3 years ago that was already removed. Wdym “actively”?
You gonna provide a source? It’s been a couple days now.
It’s software with no opinion.
What? How is software transphobic
Because people are still Reddit-brained, have no capacity for nuance and thrive on outrage like an addict.
For the addicts with their finger smashing the downvote button:
Elon Musk is an idiot. But that doesn’t mean that a Tesla Model S is an idiot.
A Hyprland developer could be transphobic, members who comment in the community could be transphobic but that doesn’t make the software transphobic.
Software doesn’t have political opinions.
If you want to not be hypocritical and examine all products with the same ridiculous level of scrutiny then you’re probably using electronic components in your house, car, smartphone and PC that were sourced using slave labor, child labor or built by countries that engage in human rights abuse.
The electricity used to allow you to uncritically attack people online was generated by means which contribute to climate change which will kill or displace hundreds of millions of people.
The language you’re using is primarily used by cultures who have historically engaged in colonialism, piracy, slavery, religious oppression, ethnic cleansing and wars of aggression.
So, unless you’re willing to sit in a forest and never communicate with another person, you’re going to be using technology which, if you pedantically dig deep enough, you can find some “problematic” behaviors associated with.
Or, you could not act ignorant in online spaces. That’s also an option.
Elon Musk is an idiot. But that doesn’t mean that a Tesla Model S is an idiot.
While I agree with the point you’re trying to make, Teslas are hot garbage with shit quality control that has led to quite a few deaths. I wouldn’t ride in one, let alone buy one. If cars could be idiots, Teslas would be.
A better example would have been SpaceX.
For the addicts with their finger smashing the downvote button
Lol, dude, at the 3.5 hour mark since you edited, and the 3.52 hour mark since you wrote the post, you have a whole TWO downvotes. Persecution complex much?
It’s predictable (3.52 hours in advance, apparently) that the kind of people who enjoy low-effort outrage content (like calling a piece of software transphobic) are the same people who are unable express themselves with words. They rely on downvotes or little drive-by ad hominem quips rather than their ability to contribute anything of substance.
That’s why, in this thread, not one person can answer a simple question such as ‘How is software transphobic’ despite 10 people downvoting the person for asking. They can’t answer because there isn’t an answer, it is a nonsense statement meant to generate outrage.
It’s the exact same level of ignorance that you see from social media users on the right, in their endless quest to ‘own the libs’. It’s ignorant when they do it, and it’s ignorant when people on the other end of the political spectrum do it.
Nah mate, it’s more. Who could be bothered to refute an idiot?
Its far easier, more satisfying and fun to call a cunt a cunt and move on.
Btw, you’re a cunt
issue is, so many things have been called transphobic, from mere personal opinions to accidents to actual transphobia, i just can’t trust a blanket “foo is transphobic” comment.
Hyprland’s community has a history of toxicity: https://drewdevault.com/2023/09/17/Hyprland-toxicity.html
Who is joining communities for window managers?
Seems fine
Drew Devault has a history of trying to sabotage FOSS communities, just saying
Whoa that GH issue is pretty bad. What a bunch of babies.
Sounds and smells like actual bullshit to me
Old ≠ bad
Personally I don’t need fancy. I need stability. If it ain’t broken, don’t fix it, and I haven’t experienced issues with Xorg… But then again, I ditched Ubuntu in 2012 because they switched to that awful search bar launcher doohickey, so I might be a dinosaur in this regard.
If it ain’t broken
But it is…
I still have (or rather had) some screen-tearing somewhere. I very much have annihilated that issue with settings in X11 (though some application somewhere still has issues, be it the video player). And it just feels clunky non the less.
Although I’m currently not using Hyprland, it really feels nice to use, really flowy. I’m currently testing COSMIC (which is reasonably still in alpha, as I got issues with *** nvidia, like suspend sometimes hangs the computer).
That said, I think it’s still ok to wait until the whole ecosystem is well supported in wayland, and *** nvidia finally got their wayland shit together.
If it ain’t broken
But it is…
OK, let me add to that: if it works for me I ain’t doing anything.
If Xorg doesn’t work for your use case, then of course you should deal with it.
But I don’t game, the wildest graphical stuff I do is watching a video while running a terminal emulator, and I hate changes to my work flow.
Bloated?
Wayland? Does it have colors, window position memory or hotkeys yet? Or are they still in the “we only sell an idea, you do all the work” vaporware phase?
It’s still vaporware but most compositors implement all features now.
As for colors, HDR works with AMD GPUs.
People down vote but push-to-talk doesn’t work on pure Wayland
Wayland has a notable piece of “but Elon can do no wrong!” cult thing going for it.
You’re aware you just called the x.org developers Elon, do you?
x.org is just as much a freedesktop project as wayland is or dbus. Or, before they spun off, flatpak. Wayland grew out of the x.org devs deciding that the thing has become literally unmaintainable. The recent pain is caused by downstream devs (including kde, gnome etc) noticing quite late that the x.org people were actually being serious, if they had provided input earlier then the gazillion of protocol extensions that people are whining about now (such as global hotkeys) could’ve been finalised literally ten years ago.
x.org still gets a couple of patches – for xwayland. At some point they’re going to rip out the whole graphics driver stack and replace it with a wayland compositor, that compositor plus xwayland will be the X server. You’re free to build a PC with a good ole S3 Trio but don’t expect future x.org releases to support it.
What is missing that makes it a deal breaker? It really seems odd to always see comments effectively saying “we should have stayed with X.Org”. The nice thing about Wayland is that it’s maintained, so new features are being added over time.
org.freedesktop.portal.GlobalShortcuts allows apps to request a global shortcut binding from the compositor. They can’t just log all your keystrokes globally because that’d be a keylogger. Also there’d be no way to resolve conflicts between shortcuts.
If your app doesn’t support that then blame the app, the interface has been out for a while, and compositors have supported it for a while.
from the compositor
Man, in only there were a way to have all essential features in a centralized Wayland server, with compositors only handling window management instead of everything including copy/paste or global hotkeys… Alas, the technology just isn’t there yet.
I’ll quote myself, as you didn’t seem to have read it:
They can’t just log all your keystrokes globally because that’d be a keylogger. Also there’d be no way to resolve conflicts between shortcuts.
Go ahead, tell the X devs that their new protocol is worse than the old. That, instead of improving on things and creating a thing that won’t become unmaintainable, they fucked up royally and made things worse. I’m waiting.
If you want to go and continue maintaining X then go ahead, noone’s stopping you.
Or maybe you accept that the people who have been maintaining it for decades know a thing or two about the thing, and you’re just whining from the sidelines.
org.freedesktop.portal.GlobalShortcuts allows apps to request a global shortcut binding from the compositor.
A hypothetical Wayland server could implement the same protocol, so apps would talk to it instead of to the compositor, which would then focus on managing windows instead of implementing all of Wayland.
I’m not sure what you mean with “all of wayland”, here. The protocol is ludicrously small and minimal. It’s a way for programs to say “I have a graphics buffer, please display it and also give me some input like mouse motions plz”. Everything else is extensions because there’s devices (e.g. in automotive) that need only that, and nothing more, no windowing no nothing. You certainly don’t need global hotkey handling if all you ever run is one full-screen client.
Whether the compositor wants to implement windowing logic (say, tiling vs. floating, what happens when you right-click a titlebar) itself or outsource that to another process is not wayland’s concern.
KDE didn’t go that way because kwin was already an integrated compositor and window manager when it only ran on X, the smaller projects do seem to tend into that direction but they haven’t agreed on a common standard, yet.
Global hotkey handling, copy and paste, screenshots, etc are part of the protocol but need to be implemented by every compositor. X is better for this; the server handles all of this and delegates window management to the WM.
kinda sad that users can’t (afaik) enable global keyligging for all applications. I totally understand why it’s a bad idea, but it’s just so much simpler to work with.
It’s not any simpler than having a popup appear when an app asks for a global shortcut, and way way less secure
Security aside if there’s no central management you can have multiple apps listening for the same keybinding, I wouldn’t call that “simpler to work with”. It may be easy in the short term, but the dark side of the force always is.
not sure what you’re talking about, but I’ve got colors on my PC xd
Is Hercules even supported any more?
My high resolution EGA display has all kinds of colors. Up to 16 at once, even.
Was the last time you read or heard anything about Wayland 15 years ago?
Wayland seems to have problems showing colors properly. I was trying to fix this issue myself a couple weeks ago.
Colors in Xorg and Windows(gross) show properly, Wayland always looks dull and muted in comparison. Switching color profiles didn’t change anything.
But hey, maybe there’s a fix I haven’t tried yet that works… I sure would hate to be proven wrong! No seriously, if someone has a fix for the dull colors I would likely start using Wayland again.
between sway, hyprland, and kde I’ve never seen this color issue you’re describing, on three different laptop displays and one external monitor. maybe there’s something else going on?
I’m running Gnome on Nobara, switching between Wayland and Xorg there’s a noticable difference in the vibrancy of the colors. Xorg and Windows both look fine, it’s specifically under Wayland that everything dulls out. Multiple displays, displayport/hdmi makes no difference.
That said, this problem doesn’t affect everyone. Makes it much harder to troubleshoot. Color profiles don’t alter anything, I don’t have an HDR display and most of the forums I’ve found regarding this are having issues with HDR.
I have no idea at this point and limited free time to work on it when Xorg has been working fine. That said, I figured I’d throw it out there in a thread where people are praising Wayland to see if someone knows something I’ve missed. XD
Try KDE with both and see if you get the same issue?
Nov 2024 actually.
My Wayland is now in Technicolor, but it cost me a few shillings.
