• daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    0·
    7 months ago

    I’ll say that I find easier to exit vim that to exit nano.

    I don’t know what ^ means. I just start pressing special keys until it doesn’t the thing

  • MostRandomGuy@lemmy.mlEnglish
    0·
    7 months ago

    Vim actually IS easy to use once you get the hang of it, plus more comfortable and efficient.

    Nanos just an excuse for lazyness, cmv.

  • ReCursing@lemmings.world
    0·
    7 months ago

    Ugh, I swear vi and it’s derivatives are the absolute worse text editors going. There may have been reasons thirty or forty years ago, but now it’s just complexity and a weird ui for the sake of it

    • matthewmercury@reddthat.com
      0·
      7 months ago

      I use VS Code on the desktop nowadays, but vi will always be my editor of choice in a terminal. Many of the reasons it was powerful and ubiquitous 30 years ago are still valid, so it’s still powerful and ubiquitous. And I’ve been using it for thirty years, so why would I switch to a training-wheels editor?

      • voracitude@lemmy.world
        0·
        7 months ago

        I regularly fix my bashrc file with Notepad. I run it in Wine because I cbf to RealVNC from my Windows CE media server.

        (n.b: None of this is real, I wrote it to upset people, I’m sorry)

        • riodoro1@lemmy.world
          0·
          7 months ago

          Well let me upset you.

          Ive been helping my coworker on a call and he was sharing his screen. I told him to edit a file (add a line) on a linux box we develop and he copied the file to his windows host with winscp, edited it in notepad and copied it back. I fantasize about killing him ever since.

          • Dave.@aussie.zone
            0·
            7 months ago

            They need to learn how to use their tools better. Winscp does all that transparently for you if you press F4 on a file on a remote system. Or maybe they did and you just didn’t see it…

            It’s quite a handy function when you’re diving through endless layers of directories on a remote box looking for one config file amongst many.

  • ramble81@lemm.ee
    0·
    7 months ago

    I’ve come to the conclusion, people who use vim just continue to do so out of a stubborn sense of pride for finally learning the key combinations.

      • Treachery4524@lemmy.ml
        0·
        7 months ago

        Can you use a mouse in nano? I always just use the arrow keys, or page up/down and home/end

        I mostly use vim but I barely use the jkl; to navigate the document.

        • TheHarpyEagle@lemmy.world
          0·
          7 months ago

          Ah sorry, I meant using Vim in a GUI program. I wanted something with the flexibility of a mouse (quick navigation, context menu actions, etc.) without using a mouse. Using just the arrow keys, shift highlighting, etc. is just too slow when writing lots of text, and it doesn’t follow the natural position of typing.

    • Boomer Humor Doomergod@lemmy.worldEnglish
      0·
      7 months ago

      It’s not pride, it’s just that I know how to use it really well and that makes it easy for me to use.

      But it’s really only for viewing files on another system over SSH. For local work I use Sublime Text

    • hakunawazo@lemmy.world
      0·
      7 months ago

      It’s just convenient that it’s pre-installed on many servers.
      So I can use it now everywhere with my stubborn sense of pride for finally learning the key combinations.

    • pixelscript@lemm.eeEnglish
      0·
      7 months ago

      I mean, yeah, kind of. In the same way pilots fly planes out of a stubborn sense of pride for knowing what all the flight deck controls do.

    • techwizrd@programming.dev
      0·
      7 months ago

      I am faster, more comfortable, and more productive in Vim. I use the same keybindings in all my editors and IDEs. It’s okay for people to have different preferences.

    • JustAnotherKay@lemmy.world
      0·
      7 months ago

      In my case it’s not a sense of pride. I can’t use anything other than Vim because I keep accidentally putting random incantations into my word documents.

      “There once was a dduuuZQ:q!”

        • PlexSheep@infosec.pub
          0·
          7 months ago

          That extension is actually pretty cool. There is also tridactyl and a browser that was made with vim in mind, but a browser and a text editor are too different for many things to translate.

        • JustAnotherKay@lemmy.world
          0·
          7 months ago

          Ya know, I might throw that on to my browser but I doubt I’d actually use it much. I only really use my browser for research; notes, music, and most of my work is done in the terminal. Being able to swap tabs faster by not having to cycle could be useful, but other than that I find the mouse to be a pretty rapid way of navigating unfamiliar pages

          • lemmesay@discuss.tchncs.de
            0·
            7 months ago

            in my case, my hand hurts if I use mouse(or a mobile phone) for some time. using j/k for scrolling and clicking links via f help me a lot.

    • catshit_dogfart@lemmy.world
      0·
      7 months ago

      I just use vi

      Is that stupid? It’s all I ever bothered to learn, hasn’t failed me yet. Now I’m not some big time linux guru but I’m a sysadmin and regularly find myself elbow deep in a CLI for stuff.

    • PlexSheep@infosec.pub
      0·
      7 months ago

      What do you mean? The vim users know their key combinations pretty well, that’s kind of the point of vim.

    • TheV2@programming.dev
      0·
      7 months ago

      There is no sense of pride. Every text/code editor has key combinations that many users will learn eventually. Vim has easier key bindings.

    • sping@lemmy.sdf.orgEnglish
      0·
      7 months ago

      And yet Emacs users don’t fight vim users. Emacs users decided vim’s interface was pretty cool and added it to Emacs. Somehow people still call it a war though.

      • kata1yst@sh.itjust.works
        0·
        7 months ago

        Bruh 😂 the Emacs user community absolutely constantly shit on Vim users. When they added Vi(m) bindings they literally named it ‘evil mode’, and they constantly make fun of people who use it, and spacemacs, and the latest flavor of (neo)vi(m), and all the extensions necessary to make vim halfway useful as an ide, etc etc etc.

        • sping@lemmy.sdf.orgEnglish
          0·
          7 months ago

          Which Emacs community? I’ve been following it for ages in a few places (Reddit is the most common) and I literally do not encounter any of that. Calling it evil was humor - as if people who went to all the bother making it would be trying to push people away…

          Using the evil package is very popular and often recommended, which means literally using it like vim, but with all the Emacs ability on top. I don’t know what on earth you’re talking about.

          • wise_pancake@lemmy.ca
            0·
            7 months ago

            Same here.

            The biggest diss I have on emacs users, as a vim user, is that emacs is the only text editor where people routinely need to keep a book about it on their desk!

            I used to work with a bunch of emacs guys and they all had an emacs book or two on their desk or as a monitor stand. They usually also had one on awk and/or Perl to go with it.

            I’m sure they’d probably make fun of me for being unable to edit a file with anything but my specific vim config, which is not compatible with any other human’s vim config.

            (I would never seriously judge someone on their editor, but I will bust an emacs users chops and accept a good natured jab back)

          • kata1yst@sh.itjust.works
            0·
            7 months ago

            Oh to be clear, it’s all humor. At least mostly, I’m sure there are RMS level fanatics somewhere that truly believe some of the BS.

            This is something as old as time. I’ve seen it prolifically on Reddit (though not in the Emacs community, they generally discourage memes), various Linux forums, old Usenet, various programming forums… I’m not trying to be evasive, but it’s hard to provide examples that aren’t specifically cherry picked, which wouldn’t benefit the conversation much.

            There’s even a Wikipedia page dedicated to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editor_war

          • Opisek@lemmy.world
            0·
            7 months ago

            How close to vim’s functionality is evil mode? I’ve been toying with the idea of learning Emacs but I rely on Vim’s langmap and that is rarely implemented in Vim emulations / bindings.

            • sping@lemmy.sdf.orgEnglish
              0·
              7 months ago

              Although I came from vi (pre-vim and pre-evil) and still have the muscle memory, I don’t and haven’t used it myself.

              I hear it described as a “nearly complete” and “very comprehensive”. There is definitely a solid community of people using and enjoying it, but on the other hand there are always some reports of getting tired of having to work through, and sometimes extend, an additional interface layer, so in the long run being happier to just adopt the default bindings.

              I know there are a few areas where trying to follow common vim workflows doesn’t work as well. Historically the performance of line number display been weak in Emacs, though I believe it’s recently much improved. A lot of people seem to make heavy and constant use of it in vim but conversely for me (and I think it’s more common in Emacs) it’s only an occasional, transient need when some external log or error quotes a line number, so I have them only displayed when I hit the go-to-line binding.

              Overall, I think the most frustrating issues people have trying to adopt Emacs from vim are due to trying to impose their specific familiar vim workflows. The most obvious example is people concerned with startup time, but for more typical Emacs workflows it’s a non-issue. Users typically stay in Emacs rather than jumping in and out of it from a terminal (and if you really want that workflow, you run one instance as a daemon and pop up a new client to it instantly). My Emacs instance’s uptime usually matches my computer’s uptime.

              The draw of Emacs is not about it only being an editor so much as a comprehensive and programmable text environment. It is a lisp-based text-processing engine that can run numerous applications, the primary being an editor (the default, or evil, or others…) but also countless other applications like file managers, VC clients, subprocess management and many others. It 95% replaces the terminal for me, and many other tools. So it’s the environment through which you view and manipulate all things text that is very accessible to modify and extend to fit your needs. Hence the joke about it being an OS is pretty apt, though to believe it needs a good editor implies vim isn’t a good editor ;).

        • G0ne@lemmy.world
          0·
          7 months ago

          Evil or the extensible vi layer is super popular and improves the one area that emacs was lacking i prefer the emacs keybinds but have never seen peeps chat shit about it

    • skittlebrau@lemmy.world
      0·
      7 months ago

      Nano is more like fast food. It’s easy and convenient, but it makes you feel a little guilty and dirty afterwards.

      • ggppjj@lemmy.worldEnglish
        0·
        7 months ago

        Nano is the tool that people use when they don’t have a need for TUI editors in general and therefore don’t want to have to memorize how people with teletypes decided things should have been done 75 years ago and who also don’t want to get dragged into endless pointless bickering arguments about which set of greybeards was objectively right about their sets of preferences.

        I’m glad people enjoy the editors they use and also I just wanna change a single fuckin line in a config file every once in a while without needing to consult a reference guide.

        • wise_pancake@lemmy.ca
          0·
          7 months ago

          I don’t have much to say about nano, except the hotkey bindings are weird and unnatural.

          They make sense, but they feel wrong.

  • Kaput@lemmy.world
    0·
    7 months ago

    Isn’t this supposed to be VIM vs Emac? What’s is there point to be programming in the terminal anyway? Nano is good to fix some config files while your are in there, but if I needed to do real programming I’ll be finding something that works in the GUI.

    • corsicanguppy@lemmy.caEnglish
      0·
      7 months ago

      supposed to be VIM vs Emac?

      30 years ago it was vi vs everything. I don’t see it changed today.

    • cakeistheanswer@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      0·
      7 months ago

      Efficiency.

      There’s 0 chance if you have to pick up your mouse that you can keep up with a Unix gray beard.

      That’s just editing, if they’re from the emacs era there might be nothing you can do with text faster across their whole system.

      I like vscode as a entry point, but if you care to get faster learning just vim motions and sys utils alone is going to cut time from the process.

      • Kaput@lemmy.world
        0·
        7 months ago

        Oh it’s about speed. What’s the one that get your brain to be faster at programming? I use 4 fingers typing and am still typing much faster than I can think.

        • cakeistheanswer@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          0·
          7 months ago

          Definitely worth running through vim tutor at least once.

          It’s beyond typing speed, things like piping out strings to utilities is using one program to write another, you aren’t just getting faster because of access, it’s a paradigm shift.

          Edit just for fun: im a non Dev dummy who happened to grow up in a Unix household. Even having dropped vim for helix and bounced around the MS admin/Apple IT space for 30+ years. When I switched to Linux I could still remember binds I’d set up and last used at 9.

          Kinda like riding a bike.

        • expr@programming.dev
          0·
          7 months ago

          It’s speed, but it’s also flow and a continuous stream of thought. If all your editing is being done with muscle memory and minimal thought, you can continue thinking about the problem at hand rather than interrupting your thoughts process to fumble through some context menu to make a change.

  • bizdelnick@lemmy.ml
    0·
    7 months ago

    Vim (or emacs, or any other advanced text editor) is much easier to use than nano when you need to do something more complex than type couple of lines.

    • leisesprecher@feddit.org
      0·
      7 months ago

      And how often does that happen in the real world?

      VIM may have been a very useful tool 20 or 30 years ago, but today it’s nothing else but a tool for one’s sense of superiority. It’s the vinyl of editors.

      If you have to type that much code in a terminal, your infrastructure is outdated. Simple as that.

      • Chewt@beehaw.org
        0·
        7 months ago

        You seem to believe that people only use the terminal if they HAVE to. I doubt anybody these days HAS to type any amount of code in the terminal, but choose to anyway. Like probably anyone else I have access to modern tools and infrastructure, but I choose to do work in the terminal because I’m more productive there. I use (neo)vim because I like it more than any other text editor I’ve used, and have no problem writing code and debugging in the terminal.

        • leisesprecher@feddit.org
          0·
          7 months ago

          You’re using the terminal, because you’re used to it. It is not the better tool, it’s simply what you happen to know already.

          People who argue with productivity because of some key bindings live in the world of the 80s. You don’t just sit there and type code 12h a day, that’s not how modern software development works.

          And all those blockheads down voting me are caught up in their weird superiority complex. They are the powerful superhackers, and don’t understand that we are just highly qualified plumbers.

          • Chewt@beehaw.org
            0·
            7 months ago

            I’m actually fairly young and wasn’t around in the 80s. I graduated college with a CS degree in the past 5 years, where I was exposed to many different tools and software. What did I come out of that experience with? I like the terminal more than any IDE I had to use in any class.

            Now in the real world, we don’t always get to use our favorite tools for every task, obviously. I do need to use other, more enterprise, software from time to time for work. But whenever possible I go to the terminal because I’m faster there, and I can quickly automate things.

            I’m not saying the terminal is the best tool for every job, I’m just saying it is the best for ME. Notice I’m also not putting down other tools here. It seems to me like you might be the one with a superiority complex.

            • leisesprecher@feddit.org
              0·
              7 months ago

              No, I’d argue you simply didn’t want to invest in the other tools.

              Think about it, you probably spent hours on customizing and automating vim, and then say you’re faster in that. Well, that’s called a habit.

              IDE are objectively more powerful and since you can actually see options and navigate quickly, you don’t need to memorize every obscure feature.

              All the terminal editor enthusiasts are actively holding us back, because they insist everything outside vim is garbage for enterprise and kiddies.

              If your tool of choice is actively hostile to new users for no reason other than “that’s how it’s always been, and thus it’s better”, well then you’re digging a moat to automate your gatekeeping.

              • Chewt@beehaw.org
                0·
                7 months ago

                vim + terminal is actually objectively more powerful than any IDE, and most IDEs include a way to pull up a terminal as a crutch for things they can’t do. In any case It seems you can’t be reasoned with. Your argument is just a strawman about what you say other people are saying.

      • havocpants@lemm.ee
        0·
        7 months ago

        VIM may have been a very useful tool 20 or 30 years ago, but today it’s nothing else but a tool for one’s sense of superiority. It’s the vinyl of editors.

        So, because you don’t understand something, it’s outdated?

        If you have to type that much code in a terminal, your infrastructure is outdated. Simple as that.

        Ok, I can see you have no idea what you’re talking about.

        • leisesprecher@feddit.org
          0·
          7 months ago

          I understand it very well. And that’s exactly why I’m writing this.

          Ok, I can see you have no idea what you’re talking about.

          Then say, grandmaster delusion, what purpose does vim serve, where it is actually the best tool? Writing code? Hardly, it’s way too limited and requires a ton of upfront investment and headspace. Writing config files? Hardly, because if you write these by hand, you’re living in the 90s, that’s what Ansible, Terraform etc are for.

          You just don’t want to admit, that vim is nothing more than a habit. Muscle memory.

            • Fox@pawb.social
              0·
              7 months ago

              Right, it’s remembering them and using them efficiently that’s hard. It’s amusing watching coworkers try to flex in vim and then struggle at the most basic tasks.

          • bizdelnick@lemmy.ml
            0·
            7 months ago

            No, some piano plays are still harder than others, mo matter how long you practice. Editing text with vim is easier than with nano after some practice.

            • SomeLemmyUser@discuss.tchncs.de
              0·
              7 months ago

              If something is “easy to use” this includes the time you need learn said thing.

              Drinking rahmen from the bowl is easier then using chopsticks (even if you are more elegant with chopsticks)

              Driving automatic is easier then driving manual (even if you may be more efficient with manual if you practised shifting a lot)

              Walking is easier then flicflacs (even if you may be faster with flicflacs if you practised a lot)

              Using Ubuntu is easier than using arch (even if arch gives you more control and opportunities if you understand it)

      • socsa@piefed.socialEnglish
        0·
        7 months ago

        This makes it seem like jerking off to MILF porn is hard because there is a learning curve

  • unknowing8343@discuss.tchncs.de
    0·
    7 months ago

    In every post of this kind I am amazed at so many people using nano instead of micro which is SO MUCH BETTER while being the same thing at the same time.

  • riodoro1@lemmy.world
    0·
    7 months ago

    Average vim user: vim is easy.

    Also average vim user: literally hours of reading tutorial pages on how to use vim.

    • barsquid@lemmy.world
      0·
      7 months ago

      It is easy, though? I cannot even use it correctly. I just know some of the commands and that if you hold down shift it goes backwards.

      • Voytrekk@lemmy.world
        0·
        7 months ago

        I’m a vim user and I would say it’s not. It’s very powerful, but only once you become familiar with the commands.

        Nano is a better default for the average user because it works in a way most users would expect for a text editor to work.

      • ysjet@lemmy.worldEnglish
        0·
        7 months ago

        Honestly, these days it’s pretty simple. The thing you need to remember is that you do not need to know EVERYTHING all at once. Learn a little bit, use it, keep what you use, discard what you don’t, get it in muscle memory, and learn a bit more. Very quickly you’ll be zooming through vim.

        You can learn the basics, and go from there- the basics of vim (which imo everyone should know- vi is often the fallback editor), and then you can just casually learn stuff as you go.

        Here’s the basics for modern default/standard vim: Arrow keys move you around like you expect in all ‘modes’ (there’s some arguments about if you should be using arrow keys in the vim community- for now, consider them a crutch that lets you learn other things). There’s two ‘modes’- command mode, and edit mode.

        Edit mode acts like a standard, traditional text editor, though a lot of your keybinds (e.g. ctrl-c/ctrl-v) don’t work.

        Press escape to go back into command mode (in command mode, esc does nothing- esc is always safe to use. If you get lost/trapped/are confused, just keep hitting escape and you’ll drop into command mode). You start vim in command mode. Press i to go into edit mode at your current cursor position.

        To exit vim entirely, go to command mode (esc), and type :wq<enter>.

        ‘:’ is ‘issue command string’,

        ‘w’ is ‘write’, aka save,

        ‘q’ is quit.

        In other words, ‘:wq’ is ‘save and quit’

        ‘:q’ is quit without saving, ‘:w’ is save and don’t quit. Logical.

        Depending on your terminal, you can probably select text with your mouse and have it be copied and then pasted with shift-ins in edit mode, which is a terminal thing and not a vim thing, because vim ties into it natively.

        That gets you started with basically all the same features as nano, except they work in a minimal environment and you can build them up to start taking advantage of command mode, which is where the power and speed of vim start coming into play.

        For example ‘i’ puts you in edit mode on the spot- capital i puts you in command mode at the beginning of the line. a is edit mode after your spot- capital A is edit mode at the end of the current line.

        Do you need these to use vim? Nope. Once you learn them, start using them, and have them as muscle memory, is it vastly faster to use? Yes. And there’s hundreds of keybinds like that, all of which are fairly logical once you know the logic behind them- ‘insert’ and ‘after’ for i/a, for example.

        Fair warning, vim is old enough that the logic may seem arcane sometimes- e.g. instead of ‘copy and paste’ vim has ‘yank and put,’ because copy/paste didn’t exist yet, so the keybinds for copy/paste are y and p.

        • wise_pancake@lemmy.ca
          0·
          7 months ago

          The second most important thing about vim to learn is:

          If nothing is behaving then you probably have caps lock on.

      • s_s@lemm.eeEnglish
        0·
        7 months ago

        Vim makes it easy to edit text in complicated ways, once you’ve learned it.

        Vim is not easy to learn nor intuitive.

        It is simple and compounding.

        You might not ever edit enough text to ever need to learn a new skillset to edit text. If that’s the case, use nano.

        But if you do find yourself editing a lot of text, consider trying vimtutor.

        It takes 20 minutes and you’ll be proficient enough to match nano’s efficiency ceiling.

  • jmcs@discuss.tchncs.de
    0·
    7 months ago

    Easy is relative. What are you trying to do? Replace a value in an yaml file? Then nano is easier. Trying to refactor a business critical perl/brainfuck polyglot script in production? Then you probably want to use vim (or emacs if you are one of those people)

    • notfromhere@lemmy.ml
      0·
      7 months ago

      Honestly, roll back to previous release for production and use best IDE your developers are used to on their local machines, test the fix in a non production environment then release to prod. When is editing business critical scripts in production really needed?

      • jmcs@discuss.tchncs.de
        0·
        7 months ago

        It was a joke to make the point that vim can be the easiest tool to use if you are trying to do a complex task.