You aren’t a Linux user if you don’t like to RTFM.
A lot of the time there’s just no way around it.
The best thing about Linux is that it comes with a manual. Like literally type man and boom there it is. As a C developer it is like easy mode. I hate having to open a browser just to know what a basi command does
Or you could just Google stuff and then paste the commands into the console.
Just wait till you find out about FreeBSD and its manual
And this, folks, is why there will be no “year of the Linux desktop”. The technical difficulties, and the surrounding gatekeeping.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m a dev, I RTFM, but for most people, their computer is just a simple tool, like a hammer or a screwdriver, that lets them do the actual work they have to do. They aren’t any less “real” Linux users. Just users that will go back to other OSes cause it doesn’t work for them and they keep getting told that it’s their fault for not reading the manual.
There are other distros that require a lot less work to set up and maintain.
Yeah, but that wasn’t my point nor the one made by the person I was answering to. My point is, those users eventually hit the (inevitable) bump in the road, ask for help, get told by people like the person I was answering to that they have to RTFM or else they aren’t real Linux users, so they go back to Windows.
I’ve been using Linux for a very long time and nothing of the sort has ever happened to me.
I genuinely have a hard time believing you can both have been “using Linux for a very long time” and never had to fix an issue lol. If you’ve legitimately been using it for that long, you’re also probably the type to RTFM, so I probably wasn’t talking about you…
I’ve had to fix many issues but I’ve never had anyone be an ass about it. I’ve received plenty of friendly, helpful advice.
If what you didn’t see were examples of gatekeeping, read this very thread lol. But again, rather anecdotal. Spend some time talking to anyone trying the OS now and see their experience. Read threads made by newbies.
Yeah, I see a fair amount of gatekeeping and condescension in Linux communities. I also see a lot of people who truly want to be helpful, but that aspect is there.
I’ve seen Linux compared to car ownership a number of times, and I think that’s an apt comparison. I have the knowledge to use and perform basic maintenance on a car, and I have no interest in learning more. It’s a tool made for a purpose. Some people love to tinker with cars, and I can understand that. I love Linux and enjoy tinkering with it, but it generally won’t “just work” for most users. Yes, if you’re setting it up for your grandparents and they just need a web browser or something like that it’s probably fine but most users that aren’t Linux savvy are going to run into issues.
Linux is becoming ever more usable, and I think usage will continue to increase alongside that, but I don’t see it ever becoming a major personal desktop platform. Wouldn’t mind being wrong, but Linux will be fine, regardless.
That was more ranty than I had expected!
chromeOS exist, and it’s very mainstream, distros anly need tobe more dumped down, not to much, just enough, my bet is in finally atomic systems becoming the norm and flatpak too
I wouldn’t call ChromeOS Linux anymore than I would call MacOS FreeBSD (oversimplified comparison, but it works for my point).
It may be based on a Linux kernel but it contains closed source code that’s needed for essential functionality, and we don’t get to choose hardware independently of the OS, nor a different OS for the hardware.
It’s an ecosystem that’s hostile to user rights and in my opinion doesn’t fit the spirit of what Linux is.
Edit: I suppose that’s a bit gatekeeperish? But I don’t think Linux adoption should be achieved at the cost of user freedom and choice. It loses what makes it special at that point.
And this, folks, is why there will be no “year of the Linux desktop”. The technical difficulties, and the surrounding gatekeeping.
Joke’s on you, we don’t need there to be one. Mine was 2007. Yours was whenever it was. I welcome new users, but my happiness doesn’t depend on Linux appealing to everyone, and neither does the survival of Linux as an option.
The types who appreciate what differentiates the Linux experience from Windows or MacOS (in terms of the typical benefits we’d evangelize) will find their way here. It’s naturally getting easier over time, and the contrast (especially against the Windows experience) is only increasing in its attractiveness.
You need a willingness to learn, and if you’ve never installed an OS ever before that will be true even for Windows. Why are we trying to lower the bar further than that? Not everyone has to start with Arch, or should.
This is merely one way to view it. The other is the one I gave. An OS is a tool for most people, they don’t even understand nor learned Windows, it’s mostly the gateway between them and their actual work, i.e. the software they use. They want a computer that runs their software, that’s it.
The “we don’t need them as Linux users if they don’t want to RTFM” line of thinking you’re exhibiting was exactly my point. Why do you interpret making things better for everyone as “lowering the bar”? Unless you genuinely think it’s a good thing the technical barrier is there, I don’t know how you rationalize this opinion.
Mine was 2007 too. Almost two decades later, and we still have the people playing gatekeepers.
Who’s gatekeeping? Why would a new user be pushed to Arch? There are many options where a user can probably get by without having to read a wiki, and certainly not the Arch wiki. It’s no harder than installing Windows to install those distros for a basic install - and no harder than an advanced Windows install for an advanced install. What problem are you trying to solve?
My point is - there’s always this underlying “well it’s not easy enough for every last untrained child to pick up an iso and install it, so it’s failed!”
My point is:
- Netiher is Windows
- Even Windows has a learning curve, but it’s so ingrained that folks don’t realize they’ve already traversed it and
- NOTHING appeals to or is suitable for every last person, so why does desktop Linux (edit: Or at least Arch for sure as in OP) need to be?
Jesus, the self-entitlement of users these days… When saying you might have to RTFM is equivalent to, “that feature never worked or never existed and you should feel bad for wanting it”.
Nobody is gatekeeping anything by merely pointing out that you will very likely be digging through docs to troubleshoot Linux.
That’s just stating a fact. Why does stating a fact offend you so much?
Honestly I love the Steam Deck for getting Linux into people’s hands in a way that’s easy and Just Works :tm:. They’ve not replaced the OS on their Steam Deck at all, which is a win not just for Valve but the Linux ecosystem as a whole.
Though, the only issue my friends has had is transferring files to and from the Steam Deck if their main PC runs Windows or Mac. There are a multitude of varyingly convenient options but all of my friends have literally just plugged an external hard drive through the sole USB-C port lol. Linux has to cater to people who won’t even install third-party drivers.
Yup Steam Deck is a great example of Linux falling in end-users hands in the right way to drive adoption. The average person doesn’t even have to care that it is indeed running on Linux.
Nearly every machine with any complexity greater than a light switch comes with a manual. As the number of features of a system grows, it becomes less and less feasible to design user interfaces that expose all of those features so intuitively that most people get them instantly. In fact large software with tons of features in UI have manuals and need books to master. Featurefull software requires documentation. And so the question isn’t whether one piece of software requires documentation to use or not, instead it’s whether that pieces of software can do more or less, and whether someone bothered to write a doc. In Linux’es case someone typically bothered to do it. There is an M to RTF. On Windows on the other hand, if something obvious doesn’t work, or it isn’t obvious, you’re often stuck with hearsay or worse - banging your head against the wall. It’s quite alright for people to prefer to stick with what they know whether it provides the easiest way to do something or not. But let’s not get confused that RTFM is a bad thing. RTFM means there’s an M, it means the M will help, it means that the software has the capability you need, and likely more than you need. ☺️
Okay. But did any of these users need to read the manual to use Windows? My point was not that RTFM is a bad thing per se, but that pretending people aren’t proper Linux users if they don’t is absurd. They have Linux in their machine? They’re Linux users.
You’ll find that most users don’t really use Windows. They use a handful of programs, usually superficially, and that’s pretty much it. People tend to have as little knowledge of anything computer related as possible. Whether they actually need it or not. Knowing about computers is seen as “bad”.
If you ever have to support users, it’s very enlightening in that regard.
Which was exactly my point. Most people see their computer/OS as the thing that lets them log in and launch their programs, that’s all. Which comes back to expecting most people that launch Linux to do it being an unreasonable ask. We don’t ask people to be specialists of their cars’ mechanics to drive it.
Yea but we expect them to also know “R” isn’t for “Really fast”.
You need to recognize what defending ignorance is.
I’ve helped plenty of non-technical folks install Linux on older machines and they have zero problems using it for basic computing stuff, especially since so much of it is just websites.
Yes of course a Linux user is a Linux user whether they RTFM or not.
Gatekeeping aside…
LMDE on somewhat recent hardware with an iGPU. My wife has not asked me a single question, mostly since she opens the laptop, opens firefox, does whatever, closes laptop. An absolutely typical user.
Sometimes she even clicks on the update popup.
Yeah, we’ve admittedly come a very long way. My Hardy Heron setup took days to get to a usable state on my hardware, back then, and even then, my laptop couldn’t hold a charge, sleep didn’t work properly, and there were so many crashes lol. Nowadays it’s pretty much smooth sailing on most of my machines without really having to think about it. I still avoid Nvidia like the plague, but Intel/AMD stuff are usually a pretty safe bet.
Those early years were really formative, but I’m glad of all the progress that’s been done. I just wish the gatekeeping would stop. It’s one of the major hurdles to adoption, IMHO. I don’t want people to convert necessarily (I still use Windows and/or macOS for things) but to stop being afraid to try, and these people really don’t help…
So where’s the Gentoo user? Behind the camera probably. Compiling the scene.
I’m still compiling my browser from source :(
Have you tried links2?
It works in the terminal and pretty well.You can add graphics support after recompiling it.
(Yes, I am self aware of this being a meme reply)
Btw, someone wants to write about bluetooth? This area is lacking in Arch Wiki.
How is it lacking? https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Bluetooth
What’s the context? Never mind, I don’t want to know
On December 15th, 2017, photographer Eugeny Hramenkov uploaded the original image of a woman holding a bottle of milk to another woman’s mouth to Instagram.
Me too, thanks
deleted by creator
Solely for scientific reasons for my friend, where is the original image from?
original source:
I’ve seen this meme format so many times, but this is the first time I’ve actually seen the source
Some russian photographer. It’s not one of those movies everyone loves so much.
disappointed sound
Nothing finer in the world than French wine, Cuban cigars and Russian escorts.
Always heartwarming when people on the internet refer to women as a commodity that only exists for the pleasure of men, putting it on the same level as a bottle of rotten grape and some wrapped dried leafs.
Well, it’s talking about a one time service. If they said Russian waiters, would that be different? Not everything has to be about objectification. It’s just discussing different things people enjoy, sarcastically and also I’m pretty sure it’s a quote from somewhere.
I need the whole bottom end of the picture before saying anything.
I did a bit of scientific research and found that this is the full image and this pic was posted on instagram…
Not a Linux user but I approve this meme
I appreciate the Arch wiki much, even as a layman Kubuntu user. It explains some background concepts pretty well which aren’t typically coveyed in man pages which dedicate themselves to individual commands and their syntax. For instance I’ve read about home folder encryption or how signals get converted from keyboard presses to symbols on screen. It’s not perfect when it comes to writing style and coverage sure, but it’s a valuable compendium to have in addition to everything else.
I’m a Debian enjoyer and still read the arch wiki
I’m a debian fundamentalist, you should repent!
Nah, arch wiki rocks
I think I’ve seen this porno at some point. I clicked away as soon as the milk came out, that’s a little weird.
It’s not a video, the post was just this photo on Instagram. A friend of mine looked for it, sicko.
The arch wiki is generally actually good though. Dumbed down where it needs to be, usable examples, and in a familiar format.
Thanks, I was confused for a second, and was wondering if something had happened to make the arch wiki unusable or if it had been replaced.
It’s all hosted on pornhub now.
Unfortunate for our Texan brethren…
As a Virginian, they finally made me subscribe to a VPN. These stupid conservative fuck wits. Like hell I’m giving PII to every adult website.
exactly, i use fedora, and their documentation is good, but archwiki is just faster
It’s great. As a Gentoo user I still use it quite often. It helps that Arch has a far larger userbase, so its wiki is a lot bigger. (It also helps the Arch wiki didn’t lose everything 15-ish years ago due to a server hard drive failure)
Any girls wanna pull my hair and read me the Arch wiki 👀
Dozens are waiting for this.
If there are dozens of thirsty lesbians using Arch Linux, then I am one of them.
If there is one thirsty lesbian using Arch Linux, it’s me.
If there are no thirsty lesbians using Arch Linux, then I am no longer on Earth.
If the world is against thirsty lesbians using Arch Linux, then I am against the world.
bruh
Umm… Would you like a drink of water?
In your local area!
this is probably the most commented post on Lemmy where that KOLANAK blue letter guy hasn’t commented yet
lol
I don’t get it. Women don’t exist, this if just a fantasy
AI generated, obviously
