Remember to build everything from source
I have no idea what CLI is. I just use Mint and don’t put much thought in.
It’s an abbreviation for Command Line Interface To Objects Residing In System. A lot of male programmers can’t find it.
I think it’s the Linux equivalent of Windows Command Prompt.
Windows Command Prompt/Powershell is a CLI, Linux’s is called Terminal
Command Line Interface - an interface method to your computer using lines of text
An at least superficial understanding of the cli is an essential part of using linux. If you don’t ever want to use a cli, what are you doing pursuing linux? Do you just want a free version of windows? Go pirate windows.
I pursue Linux because I want a FOSS OS and its privacy and security benefits, not because I want to tinker and learn the CLI.
I mean, I do want to tinker and I have learned the CLI but it’s not why I pursue Linux.
Grew up with ms-dos. Spent half my career in telnet and ssh consoles.
When I just want to play Balatro at the end of a long day fuck any system that requires more than click click to get me in.
That’s why I’m switching to Linux when windows 10 is no longer supported because fuck win 11 and the amount of regedits it’s gonna take to get that working.
The CLI is a universal master control panel, of course you need to learn it. Unlike windows, Linux terminals are fun.
Fun is subjective. I do not consider the CLI fun. It’s useful but not what I want to spend my time with.
I said unlike Windows
Sorry, let me be more clear: Fun is subjective and I for example do not find the Linux terminal any more fun than the Windows cmd and I don’t like that I have to use it. I find it useful as a fallback for lackluster UI.
Define lackluster UI
UI that either lacks important functionality or is laid out bad enough that the functionality might just as well not be there.
What scares me is that I’ve tried to hook multiple “geekier” teenagers on Linux, and they aren’t interested. Even the math-y ones don’t know the difference between an operating system and a browser. My main computer is Arch with xmonad and it disturbs and confuses them.
We have a lost generation when it comes to computers. Lots of the little geeks that would have been playing around in the registry or learning powershell 15 years ago are so stuck in walled gardens that they don’t even know there’s a world outside of them.
To be fair, Windows really hasn’t pushed Powershell all that much. They haven’t even fully ported over all of Command Prompt’s commands. You have to prefix those with
.\(I think; it’s been a while) in order to get them to run even though the error message that comes up if you don’t include that will tell you, “Hey, there’s a command named this. Prefix it with that to use it.”Now, instead of simply porting everything over, they have one app (named Terminal) running both programs.
that’s because an emphasis was made to be productive on technology, not imaginative while they were kids.
A meme is a great way to avoid their fury; Lynx doesn’t show images.
It’s open source, they can just make their own distro.
And that attitude is why Linux is struggling to gain market cap imho.
Yes they can, but maybe we need to embrace those who arent tech saavy?
Saying if you dont like it, go do your own thing is not very welcoming.
We should encourage people to create their own distribution, but maybe welcome people with open arms first, guide them to a flavour that works for them, and then encourage them to learn how to make it exactly what they want
Why, no really tell me why we need to embrace nontechnical Linux users? What exactly does Linux have to gain? Because afaik nontechnical users dont donate, don’t contribute, and dont even appreciate the software or the work maintainers put into it (and they complain far more often). Theres always “x feature doesnt work” or “y app isn’t compatible” and suddenly “Linux isn’t ready yet”.
Well, first of all that’s just elitist/gatekeeping thinking and i find it quite frustrating. If you think about it, it’s kind of like the “we don’t want immigrants, they cause much work, cost us much and don’t contribute”. A higher market share always comes with benefits and with drawbacks. There will always be more people who contribute if the market share is higher. The same with hardware compatibility. Having widely adopted open source software will always benefit the community.
Theres a fundamental difference between installing an operating system and immigration. That difference is the value of human life. Once again Linux is not a corporate product, there is no commercial benefit in mass adoption. Furthermore the people who contribute are for the most part technical users. Using your example the fact is nearly every country gives citizenship to skilled workers far faster and for a very good reason.
Okay, I see that this comparison wasn’t really good. Thinking more about it it reads like a straw man argument and i’m sorry for that.
It indeed woudn’t offer a commercial benefit, but I do really think that it would offer a benefit humanity. Because it would lessen the power that Mocrosoft has over the computer market. If the market share is high enough it would even spark innovation because Microsoft and co would be forced to innovate to keep their market share.
I know many people who would like to have an alternative to Windows, without the hurdles Linux still comes with. And I would like to be able to tell them that there is one but sadly I can’t.
Haha market cap, market share , they’re still all about selling stuff so dont really apply./ Market share is normally measured in share of revenue in most industries.
There are lots of webpages, tutorials, youtubes and stuff like that for these people already. I’m sure they can also pay companies like canonical for more dedicated support if that’s what they need.
If you want to welcome people, go ahead and do it, nothing stopping you. Create the webpage or forum or youtube channel, distribution, or write the book whatever is missing. Just make sure to moderate it to remove CLI based answers and block users like me.
“I” exist and I’m sure I’m never going to be part of your “we”. The current situation of linux home user base seems just fine to me without pandering to a load of windows users. I think you should work on your desired subculture and keep me out if it. Leave me out of it - i can stay over here under my bridge in linuxmemes wearing my new programming socks.
For the home market maybe you can look at valve and steamdeck or something as an example of an acessible linux sub-culture. Valve doesn’t maintain and support that for free though. It’d be interesting to know how many full time employees they have on steamdeck OS just for the one device (and maybe a few gaming perpherals) and one GUI. Then expand that to all esoteric hardware and all GUIs . . .
I guess chromeOS and a few forks of that is another similar example - i think that’s still linux kernel based - some limitations on hardware i think.What I’d actually like to see is B2B growth (for user ) - but I don’t think linux will ever be bought by employers like mine - I know how the procurement department operates - and I can’t see that changing. There are plenty of people who don’t need my support trying business sales, redhat, canonical, suse etc and more power to them - but microsoft didn’t get big in B2B by being usable, nor by nor having “no CLI”, nor by having a supportive community to home users. They just packaged it in a way that ticked all the boxes for the corpo procurement types - though most B2B customers do need their own dedicated user support.
My presumption is that we want people too so using Windows and supporting Microsoft/Apple
If you don’t agree with that there really isn’t much for you and I to discuss, my above view doesn’t make much sense without that presumption.
So, do you think the world would be better if people stopped using Microsoft?
Market cap? Which stock symbol is it? 😉
Couldn’t think of a more appropriate term, feel free to suggest some better terms
Market share
“I don’t want to learn/use the CLI” is equivalent to saying “I only want to use features that have a GUI”, which you can already do on any operating system (including Linux).
No, it means not needing terminal to have a usable system or to fix it
even Windows sometimes doesn’t meet this
What? No, it doesn’t mean that.
If you want audio, but will have to use CLI to fix the issue. You have a feature you want, but can’t use because of CLI.
Same with installing software or using advanced settings. If that is only accessible through CLI, it is a major flaw for any user.
It’s a major flaw for those who doesn’t want to learn how to copy-paste to CLI and take the first few steps into the terminal. Which is a valid approach.
nah fuck that noise. thats what i use.
its good to know it more deeply, but i want the practicality of a stable system that gets out of the way of my shitposting.
if anything, easy stable distros are more worthy because it allows just anyone to ditch windows. instead of being a nerd’s plaything, that is.
I can understand people not wanting to learn a ton of CLIs, I cannot understand people refusing to use any at all. They have the distinct advantage that you can copy + paste stuff, whereas in Windows you sometimes have to follow like a dozen steps to do whatever you want to do in a 2000s GUI.
I’ve used PowerShell in Windows for the past 15 years. Following dozens of steps in a GUI is not required.
I also use Linux, with bash and Python for automation. I’ve also grown to love NixOS for its automation options.
Both operating systems feature rich automation options. Both have ClickOps oriented interfaces for those that want it or are unwilling to learn to automate / use a CLI.
Doing ClickOps is a choice and a mindset, not a requirement of Windows. Using a CLI in Linux is not a requirement depending on the distro or your use case.
Dude, in a previous job I had a superior aggressively refuse to let me teach him how to do some extremely basic things on his computer (he’d just call me over to do it whenever he needed it done) and told me he did not know what an internet browser was (he used one everyday).
Now, I did not understand his thought process, but he exists. There are 100% people who understand the basics but experience intense cognitive stress at the mere sight of a command line.
I couldn’t see anyone in my family using a CLI, they’d either be scared of it or get annoyed that they have to remember things. They’d quite happily spend all day clicking around a GUI to avoid 5 seconds of scary terminal words.
I got blocked by someone here for the same idea that I thought was balanced: it is a useful tool, it makes it easy to share how to do something.
That’s it. Use it if you want, or don’t, but it’s not a negative thing. And I too don’t advocating sitting up at night reading man pages or anything…
When are you REQUIRED to use cli? The app store works well, many apps have installers, and will be perfect for average users.
Advanced users should already be familiar with CLI and just need to learn a little more.
To be fair the absolute majority of online help posts involve the CLI. Want to change language on my Debian install? It’s off to the CLI!
But they come with instructions usually. Copy paste done.
Sure, but if CLI is for advanced users and the community points towards CLI for changing the GUI language, is changing language an advanced task? Is the community making it more difficult/intimidating than necessary?
In my case I had to pull the language data AND use a TUI configuration to change language. No biggie for someone who’s comfortable with CLI, an unsurmountable hinder for those not comfortable with the terminal.
inb4 “Why didn’t you use the built in GUI?”. Desired language wasn’t an option and no obvious way to DL it either.
Yes I agree this could be made easier. When did you do this, maybe it’s been added since?
To be honest, I have no idea where to install language packs for windows either.
Bugfixing.
Falls under advanced users or copy paste from forums with instructions.
I believe Linux distros aimed at nontechnical users should strive to not need a user to ever use a terminal, but I also believe folks should be encouraged to try them anyways.
I’ll be honest, as a macos & Linux user, even macos, the (self proclaimed) Holy Grail of accessibility and user friendliness,required me to run a few commands to fix bugs (not in weird softwares, just stuff which stopped working through reboots in the OS itself).
You can’t expect to use a computer without CLI, or what you get is windows (and even then, you might get around the CLI but you gonna need to do some cursed regedit at the first attempt of slight customization, or bug).
The only exception to this is phones, and for good reason; you hardly can do shit in phones anyway, and if it bugs all you can do is wait for the devs to fix it for you
Almost all maintenance tasks and fixes on windows come back to the command line. So I have no idea why people keep bringing it up about Linux.
Because Windows hides its (ugly ass) terminal im shame so the user never has to see its putrid face.
Linux encourages terminal use, including it as one of the base starting icons in most distros.
That’s my guess, anyways.
and if it bugs all you can do is wait for the devs to fix it for you.
“Oop, sorry, we only promised 2 major updates! Your 2 year old device is abandoned now.”
–The mobile industry
We need a decently-hardwared Linux phone so badly…
Or maybe decent mobile producers. New Pixels get 7 years of updates, Fairphone 5 gets 10.
I run 2 systems. One is HTPC with LM, the other is dual boot Windows / bazzite. I like LM and bazzite. I like it very much. But maaaaan, I had problems setting up.
LM was totally fine except for when I was trying to set up pihole, screwed some steps and tried to remove it by terminal. It somehow corrupted OS so every time I’d try to login it would crash and prompt to login again. So far it is running fine but I had issues with pihole again when I tried to update it to v6. This time it corrupted pihole itself but I have managed to restore and update it. I guess reason is that pihole doesn’t support LM put of the box and requires some tinkering to install.
Bazzite, on the other hand, is totally fine now. I guess that was something related to a recent update. But before that it wouldn’t load. Like screen would be black but terminal would be still accessible. I have figured out that it would crash loading gaming mode and stuck there (but I didn’t tell it to boot to gaming mode) so I had to manually make it boot to desktop mode (kde) in terminal every time. If you think that I have screwed something up again - nope. Fresh install on a separate ssd. It installs and then would reuse to boot or boot after like half an hour into kde. All the rpm ostree -update or -upgrade did nothing.
I love these both systems but maaaaan if a basic user has to experience what I had, they’d stick to mac/windows for the rest of their life.
