cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ca/post/27756512
(Apologies if the link doesn’t work; Google are dicks)
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Funny how he praises immutable Arch + KDE and then uses Ubuntu (Snaps, broken packages, themed GNOME, not immutable)
I hope he finds his way to Bazzite, Aurora or plain Kinoite, as this would suit him way better
I’d been meaning to try out atomic distros. I’m not an expert on Linux by any means but I’ve been using it on-and-off for about 25 years, and exclusively (at home, at least) for about 7. So I’m a bit more than a noob.
I do worry if I’d feel restricted inside of an atomic distro. Might throw kininite on a laptop I’ve been meaning to give to my kid, tho.
So…
Concept of OSTree or image-based
In theory “immutable distros” are safer to use. Not easier, but setting up stuff is less hard than fixing a system that doesnt boot or upgrade.
I am only focussing on Fedora Atomic desktops, which use OSTree (which is a version control system like git, but for binaries) and in the future/currently in parallel bootable OCI containers.
Both technologies have the same purpose, that your system is an exact bit-by-bit clone of the upstream system.
Layering
Now the system needs to have support for modding, doesnt it? Android doesnt, ChromeOS doesnt, I think SteamOS also doesnt? But this is Desktop Linux!
While many distros use flawed and incomplete concepts, lacking an “escape path” (reset) back to normal (100% upstream with no changes) (for example OpenSUSE microOS, VanillaOS etc), all such distros allow you to change the system.
The disadvantage of image-based is, that you always base of the unchanged image and then add your changes. On every update, you pull down the changes, open that thing up, throw in your changes, pack it again. This takes time and wouldnt be sustainable for example when using a phone.
So you kinda need custom images like uBlue. The advantage here is, that all changes are done on a single system and all clients just clone that. Fedora for exmample has notorious issues with an understaffed rpmfusion team and problems in coordination, so you might get sync issues and a critical security update doesnt work because of a random other package conflict.
or you might get a regression, uBlue could centrally roll that back.
Apps
Tbh the biggest issue is with edge cases of Flatpaks, like portals.
I just now needed to create a signature containing an image in thunderbird. The solution is to copy that image to the internal ~/.var/app/org.mozilla.thunderbird/ container and paste the exact file path there, as portals are broken after app restart.
Then adding an HTML as signature, it needs to be saved in the same folder and also linked exactly.
These edge cases are issues. Let alone missing hardware key support, no filesystem sandboxing in Firefox Flatpak (and uBlue and Fedora people think that is fine) or outdated target systems, because Flatpak needs to work on Debian 11 e.g.
There are also apps on Flathub that are broken, like QGis, or missing apps like RStudio, both known FOSS alternatives to stuff that people really use, and I couldnt even run those without Distrobox, which is also not preinstalled on Fedora Atomic Desktops, and toolbx lacks basic features like separated homedirs.
Yup, it is a rough field. But the stability is worth it. Also, official Flatpaks are great.
He wasn’t praising immutable systems, arch, or KDE. He was praising a Linux OS maintained by Valve. Many people, especially those not familiar with Linux, simply want to use a distro made by Valve regardless of the technical details.
What? No. He
- Wanted to configure stuff in a GUI (i.e. KDE, OpenSUSE with YaST does also a ton but often duplicated and distro-specific) and avoid needing the terminal for everything. GNOME is extreme here, as the settings are so restricted.
- Wanted to be restricted in the ability to break his system. This is extreme on SteamOS, but just as stable on other systems like Fedoras Atomic Desktops
Those were pretty much literally the things he said
Good point about immutability and his comment about not wanting to break his system, i forgot about that when writing. But I disagree about Arch, snaps, those are technical details. Not sure which broken packages you’re talking about or why him using modified Gnome matters.
The Universal Blue distros are cool though, though I’ve only briefly used their lightly modified main image.
GNOME has very little settings.
I actually gave Fedora Silverblue a try, documented here. This was not beginner friendly at all and still lacked many features in the end.
So this is the issue when GNOME doesnt allow basic things, like editing desktop files in a guided way, showing package names etc.
Ubuntu has had broken packages for a lot of 3rd party software (when I last used it, a few years ago), for example SciDAVis which I used, and Libreoffice and more. Flatpak works without issues here. Beginners will not add Flatpak and have issues here.
I didnt say anything about Arch I think. He also doesnt care about that. Using Arch as base really just makes sense for Valve, as it is neutral, not legally restricted etc.
uBlue deals with the constant sync (and coordination) issues between Fedora and rpmfusion. When using Arch, this is not needed.
It’s all discovery takes a while to realise what you want from a distro. Fully agree the the ublue projects sounded exactly what they wanted
I hopped a ton. Mint, Manjaro, MX Linux, Kubuntu, KDE Neon, Fedora KDE, Fedora Kinoite. Happy landing, and hopping was not fun, it simply was broken all the time.
I’m thinking he might be happier with Noridian, ZephyrOS, Sylvanix, or AetherForge.
I myself have been trying neoNova, specTRAos, and VortexLinux and they’re all pretty good.
…
All of these are made up, I think, I just can’t cope with everybody and their dog still rolling their own distros (and alternatives to GNOME 3, thank goodness for KDE), even after 25 years of observing it happen over and over again.
I’m saving your comment to name the next seven distros I make
Zephyr is an actual operating system, but it’s not Linux
Those are not individual random 3rd party distros.
Please read up on that stuff first. I understand how oldschool users find this odd.
- Fedora is the base distro. Legally restricted, not being able to preinstall crucial components. They also do a bunch of annoying opinionated decisions, like Fedora Flatpaks or Toolbx instead of Distrobox.
- Fedora Kinoite: the immutable image of Fedora + KDE Plasma. Very barebones, not really user friendly out of the box, but a great distro. As an advanced user I use it daily.
- uBlue Bazzite and Aurora: take Fedora Atomic desktops, make them compatible with NVIDIA, ASUS, Surface and more. Add a ton of packages, many call that bloat, but it makes stuff work out of the box.
(Btw. great Distro names :D)
They had us in the first half, not gonna lie
Yeah, I was like wow! In so far behind, there is so many new distros!
Those are so legit sounding I didn’t even realise until the second part of your comment those weren’t real.
Granted, I just slap kubuntu on everything because I’m used to managing ubuntu servers and like kde, so my distro knowledge is limited, but still
Poorly, Kubuntu uses the broken Plasma 5.27 for a while until the next release afaik.
Really that was kind of the plasma guys fault, but Plasma 6.0.2 or so was really stable. Perfect LTS candidate. Then the new features came in, now it is stable again (on Fedora).
I used Kubuntu and the outdated Plasma and many packages were annoying. Nowadays snaps, and removed base packages.
I looked into distros using plasma 6 for a bit, but decided it wasn’t worth the hassle. It’s also a not trivial boot setup (dual boot with w11 and bitlocker + LUKS + secureboot) and the (k)ubuntu installer just handled it flawlessly (meaning not having to enter my bitlocker key on every boot)
Works fine for me (except some weird locale issue, but I knew that in advance)
CentOS Stream 10 will likely use Plasma 6. That will be great.
They always add features and in Fedora it is a bit breaky breaky again. After a few minor updates its fine again, and just getting better.
Just the icons are missing I think, then it would be a great LTS.
Kubuntu uses Calamares, which is a nice installer. But I managed to wipe a drive once! Because by default it loses the destination drive selection, I went back to check if everything was fine and it selected my main drive again, I continued without noticing. woops!
What’s broken about it? I use Kubuntu and everything is working fine.
I used CentOS stream with Plasma 5 and there were a ton of bugs.
I myself reported over 200 plasma bugs and all recent ones were only fixed in 6. I am on Plasma 6 since half a year or so, so no idea what exactly that was, but a lot.
Also, Qt5 is EOL.
Ok, well “broken” sounded like, you know, that things don’t work.
Yup. They didnt, that is why I reported bugs.
https://bugs.kde.org/buglist.cgi?f1=reporter&list_id=2716961&o1=equals&resolution=---&v1=%25user%25
Not all made up though. I’ve been following this one’s mailing list for a while https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zephyr_(operating_system)
the Steam Deck effect.
Ubutu
M’butu
No idea who this is but actually a great video.
'ol mate wade! he works on cars too on his channel ‘garbage time’
I never heard of this project before but I just looked it up and it looks like it’s about vintage MP3 player upgrading? Anyways nice to see more people, especially ones with niche jobs like this one, switching. Linux is slowly becoming a pretty major thing.
I like his other channels for drums / drum history (Drum Thing) and cars (Garbage Time), but notably the main DankPods channel has 1.65 million subs which could bring a load of new people’s attention to Linux.
I just checked his video about switching to Linux and I’d say it’s going to scare most potential users away more than attract them. His use case is extremely specific and even kinda creepy for a not savvy person.
Creepy???
I agree he didn’t do a good job evangelizing Linux. He made a video about his experiences with it, but I do think it’s representative of someone googling and first time trying Linux on their own without a guide friend to tell them, “oh you can do it this way now.” Him ultimately sticking with it in spite of that for data sovereignty is kind of the whole point of Free Software so I can respect that.
It is actually just an aussie looking at weird audio stuff. He started off with upgrading old Ipods but now he just does whatever he wants.
Onya, Wade, bring more people to Linux.
Not sure who that is, but great 👍
I think the worst way to sum up his channel is that he reviews MP3 players and bad headphones. You’d really just have to see it, he’s very funny.
I think of him as a zillenial version of Ashens.
That is actually the best way of putting it.
Aussie Techmoan with Ashens for good measure.
If it works on electricity, there’s a chance I’ll yell at it
or something along these lines he’s got as a channel title, and I think it describes the content in a very cromulent way
What is a dankpod?
He reviews/discusses mostly audio related tech (mainly headphones) but also dabbles in more generic mainstream tech like smartphones and laptops. The past few years he’s been expressing major frustration with the likes of Microsoft and Apple and I guess for the last few months has moved all his production over to Linux rigs, and even ditched his smart phone in favour of a modern flip phone.
Also he has a car channel called “garbage time” and a drumming stream called “garbage stream.” Very funny guy who’s definitely worth a watch.
I’ll check him out. Thx.
He also has a nugget cars channel where he reviews and tinkers with cheap old cars (and does things that outright would be qualified as torture if cars were sentient), also a music channel where he shows his drum playing and of course Frank’s channel, where he shows his pet snake, Frank. He calls it The Garbage Network.
“He”? I thought it was a brand of headphones lol
Some of my fav quotes:
“Ads in an operating system that you’ve paid for from a company that owns ridiculous amounts of money is so offensive.”
“data, it’s like the new gold to people”
“I got the confidence to really jump into Linux after the Steam Deck.”
[regarding the terminal] “You just see text going across the screen, they’re working at lightning speeds.”
“I’m kissing convenience goodbye, I just want control.”
“I’m kissing convenience goodbye, I just want control."
He is in for a surprise when he realizes GNU/Linux is much more convenient than Winblows.
Arguable
Assuming you don’t need a windows only application for your workflow (admittedly this isn’t very common), it’s really just a matter of getting used to it. There’s plenty of easy to use distros out there, such as Linux “I’m not buying my grandma a new computer” Mint.
If you go immutable then I really don’t think it is unless you need niche software
HAHAHAHHAHA
where can I get a NixOS Flare?
Niche software like the Microsoft suite? It all depends on the environment you use it in I think
Libreoffice is fine unless you’re doing something niche, so yes
I don’t think it’s really much different. What makes windows feel more convenient is that everyone generally learns how to use it first. I think if you took a person that is not familiar with either, they would be able to figure out both OS at around the same time.
it really just depends on what hardware you are on. For example my Dell pribter was plug and play on windows . It took me 6 hours to get it to work on Linux.
True, meanwhile my HP printer had a hell of a time trying to work on windows much less finding an actual downlosd for the scanner tool on HP’s websitr for a printer ovrr 5 years old and on Linux I typed
yay HP,1, then I was ready to print and scan.Plus KDE discover is the convenience if the Microsoft store was actually good.
Settings are ACTUALLY in setting instead of being split between settings, control panel, individual tool auto diagnoses, powershell, and registry edits.
KDEconnect works seamlessly and I can also locate my phone if I lost it in the house.
Yep, it really just comes down to complete luck that there are drivers in the kernel for your hardware. As another example, my Lenovo Legion sucks at running Linux out of the box. The webcam is terrible, it never suspends correctly, outputting to a monitor is incredibly painful. Meanwhile my wife’s thinkpad runs popos perfectly. Even the touchscreen works.
This. In my recent experience on one laptop. Arch (Endevour OS btw) installed fine.
But LMDE would not boot. I got a system disk missing error every time after install. So much playing with EUFI settings in BIOS, boot back to live disl, multiple re installs, GRUB repair, remake the ISO (ISO was fine, installed on another PC with no issues). Gave up. Just could not boot to the OS.
Install normal mint. No issues.
And past the install? Bluetooth dongle works fine on arch, but so many issues on mint.
WiFi dongle A works on arch, but not mint. WiFI dongle B dosenr work on arch but does work on mint. Took me a while to work thst one out.
Headphpnes have some weird echo back to me when mic is on. Use pipewire config from archwiki. Worked, but reduced qualoty. Tried a few other configs. Didn’t work. Must have broke something coz now the original config dosnt work. So will just deal with echo.
0 of these issues on windows. And 0 likely your regular user can easily swap to Linux.
Will stay on arch tho. Fuck
spezwindows.Maybe it’s just me, I always had issues with Ubuntu and Debian based distros that I didn’t have with Arch based distros. Why do people say Arch is harder? That was never my experience. I’ve been using endeavorOS and it’s been pretty great.
Arch does tend to keep packages as close to upstream as possible, which can be both a good and bad thing. Sway not binding to
graphical-session.targetby default is a little strange for example. Other distros also save a first-time user a great deal of configuration for things they probably don’t care about as well. Going through Fedora’s install and finding out that disk encryption and SELinux were configured OOTB was very nice to see personally. On the other hand Arch’s installation (w/o archinstall) has you choosing a bootloader, audio server, display manager, etc. Nothing arduous and I like it, but definitely not for everyoneThis is all eliminated by spinoffs of course, but even there users have the option to run random scripts/AUR packages without vetting them. Also doesn’t help that the most popular Arch-based distro for a while (Manjaro) was pretty flaky and generally incompatible with the AUR (despite saying otherwise), leading to many people saying “that’s just Arch” and swearing off the parent project as well
For me it’s the wiki. Arch just explaining so simply. Searching an issue for LMDE just lead to forums. And the Debian or Ubuntu wikis don’t seem as good as arch.
Plus must searches for <other distro> issue seem to lead to forums and random “run this code”. All arch searches led back to the Wiki. All hail the wiki.
But srsly. I feel like I’m LEARNING Linux with arch. Rather than just running fixes for the other distros.
It really comes down to if you are trying to use newer hardware or not. Debian based systems usually run fine out of the box on older systems.
For newer hardware your going to want new drivers and kernel versions which you get with a rolling release distro.
I had a printer I could not in my life make work on a Windows PC (2017). Then I tried my Ubuntu laptop, no drivers installed, just worked.
Fuck Windows.
I’d argue this is a wash. Linux is more convenient in many ways but Windows is in others.
Precisely… which means switching to Linux is not inherently less convenient than windows
It’s as complicated as you make it to be, and that’s gonna vary WILDLY per person lmao
Everything is complicated if you aren’t willing to commit/learn.
If you learn how to do a complicated thing, it’s still complicated.
“I got the confidence to really jump into Linux after the Steam Deck.”
I offer my son (16) to get him an “office” computer for his room so he can do homework and emails and junk. He said he felt so comfortable with Linux because of the Steam Deck and we could instead just get a nicer monitor and a docking station and he will use the Deck as a gaming machine AND office workstation whenever our main computer (also Linux) is busy
I think it should be really clear to everyone now that the Steam Deck is exactly the kind of thing that Linux needs: nice hardware with a well-integrated OS that is designed to be user-friendly and has some guardrails to prevent you from breaking it.
He’s ranting about Windows for over a year (technically even longer) now and was promising a video about Linux, glad to finally see it after waking up.
I love that he finally talked about it. He shortly mentioned the switch to Linux a while ago, in a gaming video, and Im excited to see if this makes Desktop Linux a bit more popular.
I assumed he was big on Macs for their own sake. It’s a thing, for music geeks - and obviously he’s a fan of iPods, specifically. Surprised to hear his objectively correct summary of Windows versions.
Gotta love these videos… they can be summarized as follows:
“I hate Windows so I will try Linux with no prep… Linux is not identical to Windows in x, y, z and therefore Linux is still deficient… Looks like I cannot do everything I could think of without reading a single line of documentation, conclusion, LiNUx iS nOT ReADy!”
However, this guy has actually switched to Linux, and is willing to adapt and learn how to use it.
Sure. And hopefully he can post a follow up video where he correct the misinformation on this first one
You haven’t watched this video, then ;)
I did… he tosses out a ton of misinformation about how hard Linux is. The fact he decided to “stay and endure the hardship” doesn’t mean the message he is pushing is sadly misinformed
At like 5x speed
“linux is hard” is a subjective opinion and he is entitled to it. it does not make it misinformation. he is free to express his frustrations at the learning curve, just like any learning curve in any other software.
I agree, but there is a big difference in saying “I don’t know what to do, I need to learn this new thing” vs “there is a scary part to Linux and there is no way around it”
Saying “driving manual is hard” is fine, saying “you need to learn to shift gears without a clutch to drive” is wrong and would scare potential drivers
Don’t be too quick to judge yet, he just doesn’t know what he doesn’t know.
Totally get it… but sadly, other people who follow him would listen to his vids and conclude “Linux is too inconvenient for me” based on mistaken info
I’m not so sure we’ve seen the end of his Linux videos. I’m sure he will learn more and talk about it.
How weird, I was just thinking about this guy yesterday after forgetting about him for probably ~5 years. I got pretty into buying, repairing, and modding broken iPods for a little while thanks in part to some of his goofy but informative teardown videos. Still have a small box of parts somewhere.
Haven’t watched the video yet, but I’ll be a little surprised if he doesn’t immediately fire up Shrek to test whatever media player came with his distro.
OK I was with him for the first 4 minutes about why Windows is unusable, but this was so irritating to watch. Hyperactive videos like this drive me nuts, someone talking loud and fast and editing so there is not even a millisecond gap between sentences. But the audio aspect still isn’t hyper enough for this guy, no! the video has to be the same way, showing just his hands, gesticulating wildly the whole time. UGH.
So anyway, once I got to where he finally gets to the subject of Linux and immediately launches into the typical bullshit where he says to use Linux, you have to use the terminal and know how to write scripts, I quit watching. Most of these “I tried Linux!” videos are like this. I only clicked on it because the title said he actually switched to Linux.
I felt the same a year or so ago when he went viral. some of it pretty funny, but it wears off quickly. I binged a lot of his videos, then haven’t watched one in at least 6 months. it’s a lot of high energy squealing and talking about his battery when he knocks it over.
Awww. The poor pkcell!
